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[SwiftMKIII]

I'm putting together a 16v ABA and hoped some of you might have some parts I need.  I'll be sourcing parts through the month, and hopefully get it built by the end of the month.

Parts Wanted List:

-16v head 1.8 or 2.0 (1.8 is better)
 (on the way from GA)
-Adjustable cam gear (taller block changes tdc a few degrees)

-ABA metal head gasket

-16v exhaust manifold

-16v ARP head studs

-16v intake manifold w/ cold start rail machined off and tapped for iat sensor
 ( On the way from GA)
     -- I think I'll try a regular 16v mani, then use a Rocco Mani to run intercooler
-BBM 16v fuel rail w/ mk3/4 fpr adaptor

-Digi injector cups

-440cc injectors

-16v plug wires

-NGK BKR7 Spark plugs

-Modified 16v distributor (aba guts) (from Dave)

-16v throttle body to 2 1/4" hose adaptor

-ABF timing belt

-16v timing belt tensioner

-16v crank gear
-Modified 16v im shaft gear

-BBM dizzy gizzy

-Modified crank accessory pulley
 (5.9mm machined off)
-NEW crank bolt

-BBM front coolant flange

-BBM side coolant flange

-Crankcase breather block off plate (ABA)

-16v mid coolant hose cut short to fit

-16v upper heater hose

-16v coolant sensor (the one thats in the head)


[Smokestack]

-16v exhaust manifold

3" to 2.5" here for an intake pipe adapter. http://www.verociousmotorsports.com/Shop-by-Category/Silicone-Reducers-and-Transitions/90-Degree-Silicone-Transition-Bends-4-Ply You can always find someone that can weld aluminum and hack off the TB mounting plate from an ABA manifold and weld it onto a 16v (essentially turn it into an ABF manifold). I'd mount the iat sensor in the intake piping after whatever intercooler you are going to run. It'd be less susceptible to heat soak radiating up from the engine. Later FI motors had the iat integrated in with the map sensor that mounted on the outlet of the intercooler for that reason.

Unfortunately I already sent my old exhaust manifold to the scrapper otherwise I'd give it to you. For the exhaust manifold I'd just get the Raceland header. I haven't heard of a person having an issue with fitment on the raceland header between the short and tall blocks. They also use the later 3 bolt flange so you wouldn't have to do any exhaust work.

I think the 1.8T belt fits for an ABA/16v timing belt.

[SwiftMKIII]

Chris,

I won't need a normal T-Body adapter, I will likely just have a 2.25" or 3" pipe welded to a plate drilled for the 16v intake mani then run charge pipes to the outlet of the charger.

Thanks for the tip for the IAT

I might just have to justify the $132 for a header.  My 3-bolt was cut off when I put the current exhaust on, so I'll still have to get a flange welded either way

1.8t belts fit, but they are tight with 150 tooth, and ABF belts are 153 tooth

[yokust]

I'd mount the iat sensor in the intake piping after whatever intercooler you are going to run. It'd be less susceptible to heat soak radiating up from the engine. Later FI motors had the iat integrated in with the map sensor that mounted on the outlet of the intercooler for that reason.

NOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!

Intake temps sensors should ALWAYS be in the intake manifold. Always Always Always

If the sensor is getting heatsoaked from the manifold, so is the air coming into the manifold as well. The ecu needs to see correct air temps of what air is going into cyls, not the air temp of what air is going into the manifold.

This is why they make phenolic spacers is to keep radiant heat from head transfering into the manifold as much.


All VW/Audi FI cars have the temp sensor in the intake manifold, except TDI and they dont cound for this info

[scurvy_bandit]

well this week Im going to talk to the guy at Lanier's (downtown) I could ask him how much it would cost to weld on a TB from an ABA onto the 16V manifold.

[SwiftMKIII]

well this week Im going to talk to the guy at Lanier's (downtown) I could ask him how much it would cost to weld on a TB from an ABA onto the 16V manifold.

I really don't want to put the manifolds together.  I just need an adapter from the 16v manifold bolt pattern to a 2.25" charge pipe adapter

[yokust]

Are you building a supercharger setup or turbo?

And also why not doing the 1.8t manifold w/stock lower

[SwiftMKIII]

Are you building a supercharger setup or turbo?

And also why not doing the 1.8t manifold w/stock lower

already have a nvm charger, so space for a sri with the charger in front of the motor

[scurvy_bandit]

Are you building a supercharger setup or turbo?

And also why not doing the 1.8t manifold w/stock lower

I was going to do this... how the heck do they fit together?! lol

[Smokestack]

All VW/Audi FI cars have the temp sensor in the intake manifold, except TDI and they dont cound for this info

I thought they had integrated them into the MAP sensor. I don't mess with the newer FI motors very much so I trust you on this, but I do know there are some versions of the 2.5s that have an iat sensor in the inlet behind the grill. I don't know if it is used in conjunction with another iat in the manifold or as a stand alone.

I'm still leary about putting an iat in a metal intake manifold on a boosted motor. The plastic manifolds make good heat insulators, but metal is good for transfering heat. The temperature of the aircharge changes quickly with minimal regard to the manifold temp, especially if it is chemically intercooled, and the iat readings could be thrown off by heat radiating up through the body of the sensor. The air and manifold temperatures will eventually equalize as long as there are no other overpowering factors, but the air is in and out of the engine before the manifold can affect it much. Just my $0.02.

I really don't want to put the manifolds together.  I just need an adapter from the 16v manifold bolt pattern to a 2.25" charge pipe adapter

C'mon, be kustom!  Wouldn't a TB from a 16v auto passat with a TPS work in place of the TB you have? Or are you OBD2?

[SwiftMKIII]

You guys are really stuck on the whole throttle body thing. 

My throttle body will remain attached to the inlet of my supercharger.  All I need is a plate to bolt to the 16v intake that I can attach a 2 1/4" silicone coupler on to.

Oh, and the aba mani welded to a 16v mani has been done.  It is UGLY!  The manifolds are enough different in size that it is difficult to get straight apparently.



Back on track.  Anyone got any parts

[Smokestack]

My throttle body will remain attached to the inlet of my supercharger.  All I need is a plate to bolt to the 16v intake that I can attach a 2 1/4" silicone coupler on to.

I had no idea that it was setup that way. I think G60s had an adapter like what you need. You can also gut'n'grind on a 16v TB and use that silicon adapter piece I posted to make your adapter. If you don't have access to fabrication tools, or a fabrication person/place, that would be pretty easy for a last resort.

[SwiftMKIII]

No sweat chris. I just found it funny that the intake mani and tb became the focus when in my case, they were going to be one of the easiest parts.

Does anyone know if the 16v exhaust mani will bolt to an aba downpipe?

[Smokestack]

Does anyone know if the 16v exhaust mani will bolt to an aba downpipe?

I don't see why not. They use the same gasket and have the same bolt pattern. The other 4cyl dual outlet downpipes swap between each other.

[yokust]

MK3 VR6 and 2.slo had the IAT bolted to the manifold, they are a threaded fitting.

MK4 VR6 and 2.slo had the temp sensor in the MAF

MK5 2.5 have the IAT in the MAF, and on first model year they had an extra in the boot before the air cleaner, it was not used for any calculations for ecu. Was just a generic reading, that in our country cars did not use and was deleted.

ALL 1.8t have the IAT in the manifold directly behind the t-body

ALL 2.0t have the IAT in the same spot as 1.8t

ALL older 5cyl turbo cars had the IAT in the manifold behind t-body

It is VERY critical to keep the IAT on a boosted car inside the manifold NO MATTER WHAT

And not to argue but your opinions are wrong, and theorys are wrong. If you were right all Bosch ECU setups or other mfgs cars would have been running that setup for a long time. Intake manifold temps affect air temps highly. It was why on the 2.0t they went to a plastic manifold instead of aluminum in order to control heat transfer.

[yokust]

And to swift

We are not saying using a aba manifold to mold into a 16v one.

Use a 1.8t one and you also gain the effect of a short runner setup for a boost car and a larger plenum

[Southcross]

ALL older 5cyl turbo cars had the IAT in the manifold behind t-body

I could have sworn the 5cyl turbos had the IAT sensor in the end of the intercooler?  or am I thinking of another make/model?

[yokust]

ALL older 5cyl turbo cars had the IAT in the manifold behind t-body

I could have sworn the 5cyl turbos had the IAT sensor in the end of the intercooler?  or am I thinking of another make/model?

Only the very early ones. Before the bosch/hitachi cis-e was used

[scurvy_bandit]

Jeff, I am 90% sure that the xhaust manifold stuff will bolt together. There is a 16V manifold with part of the downpipe at UP&P still. Its in the golf that had the 16V in it. If they dont you can always do what my first 4AM downpipe was and weld the downpipe outlet to the downpipe from the MK3. (thats if it doesnt work) I imagine it will.

I have that 16V distributor that needs rebuilt anyway (seals) if you are going to make a hybrid you can have it for cheap... like real cheap. I will also see if I have an extra water neck, if not then I can always order my ABF one and give you my metal coolant neck.

[GotMyDub]

Only the very early ones. Before the bosch/hitachi cis-e was used

Ed is only familiar with cars made before 1982....

[Smokestack]

And not to argue but your opinions are wrong, and theorys are wrong. If you were right all Bosch ECU setups or other mfgs cars would have been running that setup for a long time. Intake manifold temps affect air temps highly. It was why on the 2.0t they went to a plastic manifold instead of aluminum in order to control heat transfer.

My theories are right, but my application of those theories might not fit this scenario the best. Also Bosch, VAG, and every other manufacturer are not infaliable. Just look at Toyota. Up until recently they were known for their reliability and safety. Now look at them. There are plenty of design flaws in everyday products that don't really matter that much because it just works, and manufacturers aren't going to spend the money to fix them just to make them work "perfectly" unless they absolutely have to.

Intake manifold temperatures do affect air charge temperatures, but not as much as how an aluminum manifold will affect the IAT sensor. There's a reason why everything from electronics to automotive applications use aluminum. It transfers heat well, especially to things it comes into contact with. Here's a good example of where I'm coming from: blow across a red-hot hot plate. The air coming off the other side is warm, but it won't give you 3rd degree burns like the plate does. If you have something that can mimic the amount of air an engine moves blow across the hot plate you probably won't notice much of a difference in air temps leaving the plate as the air temps entering. If you wanted the air temperature to change you'd have to increase the surface area it is being blown across, or slow down the air speed so it stays around long enough to absorb some of the heat. Now if you were to mount an air temperature sensor to the hot plate it would be heated by the hot plate. So, unless there is a damn good insulator packed into that tiny little sensor, the air traveling over the sensor has to cool the heat generated from the sensor as well as the heat radiating up through the sensor. Therefore the readings aren't perfect, but either the "errors" are compensated for by the computer or the readings are not as critical as it appears. So exactly why, other than "that's how Bosch does it", does the sensor have to be in the manifold? I still think it's better to mount it in something that will insulate it from potential heat transfer (plastic bushing, plastic manifold, something metal that isn't directly bolted to metal parts that generate heat like a head or around heat generating parts, etc.) than getting it as close to the cylinder inlet(s) as possible. I just don't see your reasoning's on why it's so critical to place it there for anything other than when the engine is idleing.

So Jeff, in the attempt of trying not to thread jack you, here's a good debate by two parties with different thoughts on the subject with support for their ideas on the best place and the things to consider for the placement of your intake air temperature sensor. for your car. 

[Southcross]

Only the very early ones. Before the bosch/hitachi cis-e was used

Ed is only familiar with cars made before 1982....

see photo #2, #3 (off the Audi 5000 5-cyl turbo) through 1988
http://www.reginadubs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=798

[yokust]

see photo #2, #3 (off the Audi 5000 5-cyl turbo) through 1988
http://www.reginadubs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=798

Yes this is an early one. 5000 was the split of ecu level. 1 Knock sensor engine has before, 2 knock sensor has it after.

[yokust]

So Jeff, in the attempt of trying not to thread jack you, here's a good debate by two parties with different thoughts on the subject with support for their ideas on the best place and the things to consider for the placement of your intake air temperature sensor. for your car. 

I did not copy your whole post.

BUT

The reason the IAT should always be in the manifold IS: AND yes you are wrong. Many people have melted down pistons on stand alone for tuning off an incorrect IAT location


If you IAT is before the manifold in the intake tube, you will see much lower intake temps than in the manifold. So when the manifold heat soaks and temps increase inside the manifold. So does the air temp. So your ecu is setting timing and fuel misture for lower temps. Thus because the ecu sees lower temps it will always allow more timing advance, with less fuel.

Even if the IAT sees a little more temps than what actually is there from heat soak. Your ecu will calculate the timing and fuel mixture correctly and safely.

So when intake temps rise inside the manifold, it will keep timing from advancing as much and inject more fuel to keep knock down.

[SwiftMKIII]

Thank you gentlemen for your input.  IAT placement has been thoroughly addressed.  How about access to any needed parts?