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[greggearhead]

how would methanol break down oil? It goes to the same firing cylinder that gas goes to, and last time I checked, gas and oil do not mix in an internal combustion 4 stroke motor 

Exactly - think about it.  Gasoline or diesel can be used to clean greasy parts.  They are powerful solvents.  Now, washer fluid isn't a very powerful fluid.  Even if it got into the oil (which is much, much less likely, as we are injecting a small percentage of the gasoline or diesel going into the combustion chamber), it wouldn't break it down.

And the dye causing problems?!  Come on - it's dye.  They dye gasoline, and diesel and everything.  I bet it's pretty close to food coloring.  The amount of dye in a gallon of washer fluid is probably less than 1%.  Then, we inject say 10-20% of the diesel, so over a 500mile period, maybe there was a trace that went through the engine.  If they can find and measure some of it in the oil, the engine is probably missing its piston rings and has a few other problems.     I'll get out hte SAE journal on Monday if I can. 

[greggearhead]

Just for everyone's information, I posed the question about meth injection on top of 87 octane to the gurus at GIAC.  They recommended against it, and suggested that it still wouldn't change the intrinsic volatility of the fuel.  AWE commented that they've seen people run race tunes on 93 octane using meth injection, but have never seen meth injection with 87 octane.  I guess that settles that!  Fortunately, I found a gas station that still has manual accounting and they let me pay the difference between regular and super.  Problem solved!

OK - so they admit you can run a 110+ tune with 93, but they don't think that the same effect would happen with 87?  Physics don't change, as far as I understand.  The same effect, though appropriately reduced, would happen no matter what the base fuel is.  Why would it "change the intrinsic volatility" of 93 but not 87?  Which, we are actually not doing at all, but cooling the inlet temps significantly, which adds to reducing the likelihood of detonation, then slowing hte flamefront in the combustion chamber - which is the behavior higher octane fuel exhibits. 

As an example, I have a customer with a Nissan Sentra.  Built engine, naturally aspirated, 12.3:1 compression ratio.  Before he had to run it on half 110 and half 93, and run it really rich, would still get some detonation, etc etc.  With our system, injecting according to his MAF output, he runs it on 97 octane with windshield washer fluid.  GIAC's argument it doesn't work with 87, but it does with 93 just doesn't make sense.  David Vizard has used it to great effect over the years - running around 14-15:1 with as low as 80 octane. 

[MileHighAssassin]

how would methanol break down oil? It goes to the same firing cylinder that gas goes to, and last time I checked, gas and oil do not mix in an internal combustion 4 stroke motor 

Exactly - think about it.  Gasoline or diesel can be used to clean greasy parts.  They are powerful solvents.  Now, washer fluid isn't a very powerful fluid.  Even if it got into the oil (which is much, much less likely, as we are injecting a small percentage of the gasoline or diesel going into the combustion chamber), it wouldn't break it down.

And the dye causing problems?!  Come on - it's dye.  They dye gasoline, and diesel and everything.  I bet it's pretty close to food coloring.  The amount of dye in a gallon of washer fluid is probably less than 1%.  Then, we inject say 10-20% of the diesel, so over a 500mile period, maybe there was a trace that went through the engine.  If they can find and measure some of it in the oil, the engine is probably missing its piston rings and has a few other problems.     I'll get out hte SAE journal on Monday if I can. 

It is leaving leftovers once it is burned, just like gasoline does when it is burned.  Diesel creates soot.  You are taking a product that wasn't exactly designed to be burned and burning it. 

I am just reporting what I read.  I would really like to do some testing myself.  Maybe some before and after oil testing with and without meth/water injection.

I don't really know which is why I asked the question.  I can honestly see how it could create problems.  Just like burning WVO in a diesle degrades the oil.  Using poor diesel will do the same thing.

[greggearhead]

It is leaving leftovers once it is burned, just like gasoline does when it is burned.  Diesel creates soot.  You are taking a product that wasn't exactly designed to be burned and burning it. 

I am just reporting what I read.  I would really like to do some testing myself.  Maybe some before and after oil testing with and without meth/water injection.

I don't really know which is why I asked the question.  I can honestly see how it could create problems.  Just like burning WVO in a diesle degrades the oil.  Using poor diesel will do the same thing.

OK, good on ya for asking questions, but come on.  Why would 100% more dye from diesel or gasoline not leave a trace, but dye from washer fluid would?  Our Boost Juice uses the SAME dye, and is designed to be burned.  I get a kick out of these people theorizing on the web. 

Diesel doesn't create soot.  Soot is PM - Particulate Matter - or unburned diesel.  Incomplete combustion of diesel fuel creates soot.  Therefore the reason for MP Traps, or commonly known as DPF - Diesel Particulate Filters - in the exhaust of the new 6.7 Cummins, 6.4 Powerstroke, and the newest Durmax. 

Just as a heads up - on the diesel front - out 6.7 Cummins with a DPF would go into regeneration mode (late injection timing events to spike EGTs to burn out the DPF PM) about 1-3 times a week depending on driving.  This was totally stock.  With a Bully Dog programmer (injecting more fuel and hence more unburnt fuel, or soot, if you will in the exhaust) it would go into regen every or every other day.  With water-methanol on plus the Bully Dog - we didn't go into regen for 3-4 months.  The Gold Mine in Cripple Creek is using our system just to reduce PM in the exhaust on a truck that never sees full-throttle duty and has had multiple service problems because it can't clean out the PTF in Regen.  We can prevent it from filling.  But some yahoo on a forum of course knows more about what our system will do in terms of oil contamination.  Sorry - armchair experts bother me. 

[MileHighAssassin]

I'm not hung up on the dye so much as I am what else is left over.  To say nothing gets left behind is crazy.  There is always something left behind.  Like I said, if you run WVO your oil will be destroyed?  Why is that?

I believe what you are saying with the particulate filters and a more complete burn, but the research I have done so far is saying that methanol can thin down oil, say  10w40 to a 0w30.  So you could be sacrificing protection if you run the oil too long.  Simple sollution would be to change the oil sooner.  Methanol looks like it creates more (formic) acid in the oil as well.


When methanol burns it forms carbon dioxide and water, we assume the water is vaporized as well.  It also looks like methanol is corrosive to aluminum.

Universal averages show typical wear levels from this type of engine (stock) after about 4500 miles on the oil. High metals are coming from a combination of wear-in and the methanol-injected turbo. Copper is very high; it may indicate a problem at the turbo (or another bronze part). Heat damage can be seen in
zinc and phosphorus levels. Silicon is likely from sealers and lubes applied at assembly. 1.0% fuel was found, but this is not a problem level. We aren't sure if this engine is simply going to make a lot of metal due to the methanol, or if there's a problem."

That quote is from an oil report that was done by Blackstone Labs.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1247580&fpart=1

I am not saying it will kill your engine but I think it should be looked into.  Meth injection is great, I will probably be using it in the next year,  but attention to your oil should be happening.

Here is a good thread about what could happen if that oil gets used up, thinned, etc...

http://forums.evolutionm.net/showthread.php?s=8debd3af0bf881452afa558e07dc5569&t=252352

AGain, I am not against meth, but I would watch my oil to see if there are any changes.

[Scott]

Those guys on Bob are NUTS and they tend to freak out with ethanol... especially E85.  In terms of smarts.... yeah 75% of the people on there hurt my head when it comes to knowledge of lubricants and chemistry, but I cannot see how such minute fractions of methanol injected in a mist would be harmful in any way.

[VWO4L]

Just for everyone's information, I posed the question about meth injection on top of 87 octane to the gurus at GIAC.  They recommended against it, and suggested that it still wouldn't change the intrinsic volatility of the fuel.  AWE commented that they've seen people run race tunes on 93 octane using meth injection, but have never seen meth injection with 87 octane.  I guess that settles that!  Fortunately, I found a gas station that still has manual accounting and they let me pay the difference between regular and super.  Problem solved!

OK - so they admit you can run a 110+ tune with 93, but they don't think that the same effect would happen with 87?  Physics don't change, as far as I understand.  The same effect, though appropriately reduced, would happen no matter what the base fuel is.  Why would it "change the intrinsic volatility" of 93 but not 87?  Which, we are actually not doing at all, but cooling the inlet temps significantly, which adds to reducing the likelihood of detonation, then slowing hte flamefront in the combustion chamber - which is the behavior higher octane fuel exhibits. 

As an example, I have a customer with a Nissan Sentra.  Built engine, naturally aspirated, 12.3:1 compression ratio.  Before he had to run it on half 110 and half 93, and run it really rich, would still get some detonation, etc etc.  With our system, injecting according to his MAF output, he runs it on 97 octane with windshield washer fluid.  GIAC's argument it doesn't work with 87, but it does with 93 just doesn't make sense.  David Vizard has used it to great effect over the years - running around 14-15:1 with as low as 80 octane. 

I pretty much agree 100% with that thinking. 

Honestly, I think the only reason they haven't seen someone try it before is because it normally wouldn't be necessary.  It makes a bit more sense with the race tune on 93 Octane since race gas can't always be found everywhere and it's significantly more expensive than 93 Octane.  So, you can run 93 octane and get the benefits of race fuel tuning for a more affordable price. 
On the other hand, 93 octane is found much more readily and is not much more expensive than 87 octane.  So, someone who wanted 93 octane power would just prefer to get the 93 octane programming with 93 octane fuel rather than to go through the trouble of running an 93 octane program with 87 octane fuel and water/meth injection.

This is a special case though and seems like it would work even if it's not something that would be done often.  But, it sounds like he found an even better solution but it does limit the options significantly when you need to fuel up.

[greggearhead]

I'm not hung up on the dye so much as I am what else is left over.  To say nothing gets left behind is crazy.  There is always something left behind.  Like I said, if you run WVO your oil will be destroyed?  Why is that?

 It also looks like methanol is corrosive to aluminum.


I am not saying it will kill your engine but I think it should be looked into.  Meth injection is great, I will probably be using it in the next year,  but attention to your oil should be happening.

Here is a good thread about what could happen if that oil gets used up, thinned, etc...

http://forums.evolutionm.net/showthread.php?s=8debd3af0bf881452afa558e07dc5569&t=252352

AGain, I am not against meth, but I would watch my oil to see if there are any changes.

OK - a few important things.  Saying WVO destroys your oil is just plain silly.  Why can so many people run it and be just fine?  I am also gonna stereotype a little bit and say some of hte WVO/SVO users probably aren't the most religious in terms of maintenance, so their oil-change intervals aren't perfect. 

[greggearhead]

Whoops - bumped return.  To continue:

Methanol is corrosive to aluminum.  When methanol is in full strength, 100%, and when it is in constant contact.  It doesn't eat through the stuff like acid, but it will break it down over time.  Think about washer fluid, or even our 50/50 Boost Juice - they don't even harm paint, with extended contact.  Many years, at 8500 ft, Boost Juice (as washer fluid) used on a Black truck that is parked outside every day.  Paint looks perfect. 

I have customers that use custom aluminum tanks for their water-meth, and we receommend against it, because over a long period of time, it will break down - scaling, etc.  But that is in constant contact, not a super fine mist wisping by something once in a while. 

Yes, that EVO user probably had some oil thinning, etc.  A big problem with some users is that they use STRAIGHT 100% methanol, not a 50/50 mix or similar.  This presents a number of problems.  These people think that if some methanol is good, more is better.  The first problem that shows up is the fact that methanol, being an alcohol, is extremely forgiving of a rich mixture.  That means you can get waaay too much methanol in there and still get a good burn, whereas a gasoline rich mixture would start to miss long before it reached that level of "richness."  This means, the car will run great, but there will be more methanol in the combustion chamber than could be hoped to be burned, and there will be some oil dilution and associated problems in the long run. 

If there was WATER used in the mix, it not only offers MORE benefit (water absorbs twice as much heat as Methanol and offers huge knock reduction), it helps to control the water/methanol vs. gasoline mixture ratio.  If you inject too much WATER-methanol, you will quench the flamefront, similar to being too rich on gasoline.  This prevents the stupid over-injection of straight methanol that happens when people decide to use something way outside of what it was designed for. 

OK, now consider, as a company, we have tens of thousands of systems in operation right now.  We have a number of Class7/8 OTR trucks using our systems.  THere is one that has been using it since around 2005.  This is an engine that sees around 100k miles/year.  It gets torn down and rebuilt on a schedule somewhat like an airplane - so it has been apart many times.  The only thing that has been changed, is that it doesn't have the carbon deposits it used to.  No increased wear whatsoever.  These aren't kids looking for 40hp, these are guys that have a LOT of money in their engines that rely on them to keep food on the table and a roof over their heads.  If it caused extra wear or damage, they wouldn't touch it. 

[MileHighAssassin]

I'm not hung up on the dye so much as I am what else is left over.  To say nothing gets left behind is crazy.  There is always something left behind.  Like I said, if you run WVO your oil will be destroyed?  Why is that?

 It also looks like methanol is corrosive to aluminum.


I am not saying it will kill your engine but I think it should be looked into.  Meth injection is great, I will probably be using it in the next year,  but attention to your oil should be happening.

Here is a good thread about what could happen if that oil gets used up, thinned, etc...

http://forums.evolutionm.net/showthread.php?s=8debd3af0bf881452afa558e07dc5569&t=252352

AGain, I am not against meth, but I would watch my oil to see if there are any changes.

OK - a few important things.  Saying WVO destroys your oil is just plain silly.  Why can so many people run it and be just fine?  I am also gonna stereotype a little bit and say some of hte WVO/SVO users probably aren't the most religious in terms of maintenance, so their oil-change intervals aren't perfect. 

Are you serious?  I can show you hundreds of UOA's where WVO is extremely harsh on oil.  I know TDI guys that switched to a two tank system, before they would run 10k mile oil changes and the oil would still be fine.  Now they are lucky if they can get to 3k miles.


It is not a secret that WVO degrades your motor oil.  To say they are not the most religious is silly, you are just making assumptions now.

Here is a guy that has been running WVO for 90k... this is his 80k update.  He tore down the motor because of problems with his oil:
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=197032

What WVO can do to a modern motor:


Here is a report that is saying fully processed biodiesel can cause problems when even running it at 20%
http://www.imakenews.com/lng/e_article000962647.cfm?x=bbHf51M,b1bmpjq9

A UOA...


Look at his wear levels when he ran that oil longer (history).

[MileHighAssassin]

Whoops - bumped return.  To continue:

Methanol is corrosive to aluminum.  When methanol is in full strength, 100%, and when it is in constant contact.  It doesn't eat through the stuff like acid, but it will break it down over time.  Think about washer fluid, or even our 50/50 Boost Juice - they don't even harm paint, with extended contact.  Many years, at 8500 ft, Boost Juice (as washer fluid) used on a Black truck that is parked outside every day.  Paint looks perfect. 

IF you leave methanol in contact with aluminum it will eventually eat all the way through it

Yes, that EVO user probably had some oil thinning, etc.  A big problem with some users is that they use STRAIGHT 100% methanol, not a 50/50 mix or similar.  This presents a number of problems.  These people think that if some methanol is good, more is better.  The first problem that shows up is the fact that methanol, being an alcohol, is extremely forgiving of a rich mixture.  That means you can get waaay too much methanol in there and still get a good burn, whereas a gasoline rich mixture would start to miss long before it reached that level of "richness."  This means, the car will run great, but there will be more methanol in the combustion chamber than could be hoped to be burned, and there will be some oil dilution and associated problems in the long run. 

Well that is a start that you are admitting there could be "some" oil dilution

OK, now consider, as a company, we have tens of thousands of systems in operation right now.  We have a number of Class7/8 OTR trucks using our systems.  THere is one that has been using it since around 2005.  This is an engine that sees around 100k miles/year.  It gets torn down and rebuilt on a schedule somewhat like an airplane - so it has been apart many times.  The only thing that has been changed, is that it doesn't have the carbon deposits it used to.  No increased wear whatsoever.  These aren't kids looking for 40hp, these are guys that have a LOT of money in their engines that rely on them to keep food on the table and a roof over their heads.  If it caused extra wear or damage, they wouldn't touch it. 
How do you know it doesn't have increase wear?  Have you done UOA's before?  During the use?  You are making assumptions that there is no wear or damage.

It will take a hell of a lot of use for meth to break down the oil on a class 7/8 truck than it will a small car/truck.  Class 8 truck probably has an oil capacity of something like 30-60 quarts of oil, compared to a car that is probably a max of 5.  There is WAY more oil in there, which is the same reason that in most cases you can drive those trucks without doing any major oil changes, but just get away with filter changes and adding top-off oil.

I asked a question in this thread, if anyone knew what meth did to oil.  Your replies have been major assumptions.  You are simply saying nothing has gone wrong so it must be alright, you have yet to show me that any of this information is true.  Maybe I am expecting too much, but when you make comments like WVO doesn't cause oil degradation it clearly shows me you are uneducated on the subject. 

I myself am an oil junky.  I have done over 20 personal UOA's on various fluids, and have done much reading on oil and how certain motors, fuels and conditions effect it.  I am by no means an expert but I give it a good effort to be as educated as I can be on the subject.  Yes many at BTOG make your head hurt but there are many over there that know what they are doing many actually work in the field engineering oil for major companies.


If you want a REALLY good and a REALLY long oil read go here:
http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=136052

The authors background:
Dr. Haas is a physician and surgeon. He graduated from the University of Florida with a degree in biochemistry with honors. He studied motor oils since high school where he did independent studies on this topic. He studied the properties of viscosity.

When he was a general surgery resident in Chapel Hill he studied the flow mechanics of human blood. Today he continues his research by discussion of oil products with chemists in the field and chemists from the oil manufacturers.

He has personal racing experience in Formula Super Vee. He is his own Lamborghini and Ferrari as well as Mercedes mechanic.

[LOS]

what the fuck is wvo?  Sorry im not a diesel guy...

[Southcross]

what the fuck is wvo?  Sorry im not a diesel guy...

Waste Vegetable Oil


I should also point out that Bio-Diesel and WVO are not the same thing.... Bio-Diesel runs super clean, WVO, even when "purified" isn't that pure.

[MileHighAssassin]

Waste vegetable oil is what the guys gathering oil from McDonalds run.  There is also SVO which is Straight vegetable oil.  Basically the same stuff as the McDonalds guys but it has not been used to cook with.

Biodiesel is brewed or put through a chemical conversion to remove the unusable waxes and fats/lipids from the oil.  It is fairly easy to do but quality control is the issue.

[LOS]

Ahhh... so dumpster diving at macky d's does have its side effects... I knew that shit was too good to be true lol

[MileHighAssassin]

Ahhh... so dumpster diving at macky d's does have its side effects... I knew that shit was too good to be true lol

If you have an older Diesel you can burn WVO pretty easily but finnicky injectors on modern cars make it harder.  You really have to de-water and filter the oil pretty good.

[Southcross]

you also want to run WVO on an HOT engine only.... it doesn't burn as readily as Diesel.  Probably a good cause for fowling if not fully warmed before switching over.

[sad_rocc]

Yep, here in NY there is quite a WVO following, especially toward the Adirondacks because diesel isn't as available as elsewhere and is also quite expensive. Saw a real nice setup on a 2000 jetta tdi, really well done. Copper coils carrying coolant around the filters, heater wrap around the fuel tank that turned on when the car did and a nicely done purging system integrated into the center part of the dash below the radio. You start on diesel, run until the temp gauge reads a certain degree on the WVO, then switch over. At the end of the trip, switch back to diesel to clear the lines. Works year round and quite a few of the cars that this guy has done have many, many miles on them. Cost like $2k installed. It's so common up north that people can't have any sort of indication on their car about WVO (like a bumper sticker that says This car powered by Big Mac residue!) because people would get pulled over and get the crap taxed out of them and fined big amounts. Apparently when it's in garbage form, used veggie oil is just used veggie oil. But spend the time getting the oil, converting/filtering the oil and then burnining it in your car and suddenly The Man wants the money he'd normall get selling you straight diesel.