Topic: 87 octane in a stage 3 car? (Read 634 times)

nugen · « **on:** October 11, 2008, 11:27:04 AM »

So here's the problem, I got a fuel card from work, meaning free gas for me. The problem is that I can only purchase regular, 87 octane fuel with it. I know my stage 3 S4 isn't going to appreciate that low octane. I've got some octane boost, but I'm not sure if that's the answer. What do you guys think? Meth injection? A gallon of 100 octane race fuel in every tank? Suggestion?

Barry · « **Reply #1 on:** October 11, 2008, 12:48:23 PM »

complain to your boss....

I am not sure of what kind of mix you'd need to run to turn 87 into 93...

on the other hand, whenever I drive my supercharged 4runner across country, I always buy a case of octane booster at walmart and then fill up with cheap shit and 2 cans of booster at every stop.... not sure what the overall octane turns out to be, but never had a problem with it... that is on a 6 lb pulley, and stock fuel injection / ECU.... you're talking about a stage 3 S.... slightly different

SwiftMKIII · « **Reply #2 on:** October 11, 2008, 02:27:04 PM »

Since you are getting free gas, I feel you might consider investing in a water meth kit.

...and since Nate is gone, I feel I must be the proponent in this case.

Rs4n · « **Reply #3 on:** October 11, 2008, 08:05:37 PM »

so how is New York?
remember me?
rs4??

Scott · « **Reply #4 on:** October 12, 2008, 04:34:35 AM »

Might be better off mixing with E85, but it would require some re-tuning I suspect. Do you have an EGT or AFR guage?

Scott · « **Reply #5 on:** October 12, 2008, 04:35:16 AM »

or work out a deal where you pay the offset each month (typically 20 cents per gallon over regular).

nugen · « **Reply #6 on:** October 12, 2008, 08:03:26 AM »

Quote from: Rs4n on October 11, 2008, 08:05:37 PM

so how is New York?
remember me?
rs4??

Hey Mike, truth be told, I miss alot of things about Colorado. Not the least of which is the significantly lower price of living and less restrictive traffic patters. I live on Long Island, so I'm fortunate to have some space to myself, but it's nothing like Colorado. I haven't found a big Euro tuner community, but a guy at my gym drives a McLaren SLR 722. Out here it seems like there's the top 10%, and then there's everyone else who is just struggling to pay their $1000 a month in property taxes after losing 40% of each paycheck for income taxes.

That being said, after so many years overseas it's really good to be close to family and friends. For the first time in 8 years I know exactly where I'll be for Thanksgiving, Christmas, and New Year. To me, that justifies the frustration of moving back east.

101stvet · « **Reply #7 on:** October 12, 2008, 10:14:33 AM »

not to sound like a smartass but why not buy a cheap car to commute in? then what does it matter , there's pep who would kill for free gas what ever octane i know i would with my 170 round trip daily

greggearhead · « **Reply #8 on:** October 12, 2008, 05:51:40 PM »

If you run water-meth and use 30% methanol, 70% water (more commonly known as blue -20 Washer Fluid), it will add about 15-20 points of octane, or you would be at around 105 octane. Meaning you would have octane to spare, or could tune it more aggressively for some more performance.

Jesus · « **Reply #9 on:** October 13, 2008, 06:37:39 AM »

Greg are you saying you can just run straight off the shelf washer fluid?

Barry · « **Reply #10 on:** October 13, 2008, 09:04:11 AM »

thats exactly what he is saying.... Nate used to buy a bottle of waher fluid everytime, or every other time he filled up at the station... simple old washer fluid is the perfect mix....

SwiftMKIII · « **Reply #11 on:** October 13, 2008, 09:48:03 AM »

Quote from: GotMyDub on October 13, 2008, 09:04:11 AM

simple old washer fluid is the perfect mix....

... so long as it is the -20 mix

greggearhead · « **Reply #12 on:** October 13, 2008, 04:22:15 PM »

Right. Blue in color, and rated for minus 20 deg F is 30% methanol, 70% water.

Another thing that brings up is that you can use your washer fluid tank as the injection reservoir, and have a factory low-level light on most cars already. Cool stuff. My Mk3 is set up that way.

LOS · « **Reply #13 on:** October 13, 2008, 07:22:59 PM »

Thats pretty slick... I'll be lookin to do that with my gti once I get some stuff taken care of.

oliver · « **Reply #14 on:** October 14, 2008, 10:24:21 PM »

Hey Greg can a water meth setup replace an intercooler setup?. I'd like to do an intercooler setup but kinda don't want to hack up the bumper and some stuff just to make it fit and I'm trying to keep it clean looking without all those pipes crap. If only an air to water setup is not so expensive....

VWO4L · « **Reply #15 on:** October 15, 2008, 02:21:04 AM »

Quote from: GotMyDub on October 13, 2008, 09:04:11 AM

thats exactly what he is saying.... Nate used to buy a bottle of waher fluid everytime, or every other time he filled up at the station... simple old washer fluid is the perfect mix....

Did no one ever pay attention to Nate??

We've had this very same conversation here at least once before. It's not like you guys are never on here or anything

LOS · « **Reply #16 on:** October 15, 2008, 06:27:30 AM »

So greg, what is the mixture that y ou guys sell? IE the Boost Juice? Is that a stronger mixture? If I remember right that stuff was red...

Smokestack · « **Reply #17 on:** October 15, 2008, 07:32:38 AM »

Quote from: oliver on October 14, 2008, 10:24:21 PM

Hey Greg can a water meth setup replace an intercooler setup?. I'd like to do an intercooler setup but kinda don't want to hack up the bumper and some stuff just to make it fit and I'm trying to keep it clean looking without all those pipes crap. If only an air to water setup is not so expensive....

Nate never seemed to have a problem running just water meth on his mk2. I believe I remember him saying a couple of times that water meth was more efficient than an inter cooler, which made a big intercooler a waste of money.

MileHighAssassin · « **Reply #18 on:** October 15, 2008, 07:33:01 AM »

Boost Juice is a 50/50 mix.

Does anyone know what meth does to your oil? I have heard reports that it degrades your oil at a faster rate, anyone know the truth about this?

Gallep · « **Reply #19 on:** October 15, 2008, 12:01:36 PM »

Side Note:

I've made 4 trips to Dallas and back over the past 6 months. On those long trips I've filled up with 85 Octane, that's it. (1.8T w/ REVO) When I'm cruising 700 miles with the occasional 20 psi spike everything ran fine; i.e. no limp mode. I did notice a performance decrease when trying to pass slower traffic but that was expected.

greggearhead · « **Reply #20 on:** October 15, 2008, 03:38:48 PM »

Quote from: MileHighAssassin on October 15, 2008, 07:33:01 AM

Boost Juice is a 50/50 mix.

Does anyone know what meth does to your oil? I have heard reports that it degrades your oil at a faster rate, anyone know the truth about this?

Unless you are pouring methanol into your oil fill hole, it won't do a thing. Gasoline is a powerful solvent. I have used old gas to clean greasy parts. We are injecting a small percentage of the amount of gasoline, and it is *water*-methanol. What happens when you get a little gasoline on your hands - dries them, burns a little maybe. What about washer fluid? Nothing. There's an SAE study where they removed the cooling system in a diesel engine and they used water-methanol injection as an *internal* cooling system to replace the water and radiator normally used. Even injecting the huge amount required for that, there wasn't any appreciable oil contamination or increased wear.

Oliver - YES, it can replace the need for an intercooler. Usually up to about 20psi, water-meth injection that is accurate can perform as well (or usually much better than) an intercooler.

Compare them at a base level - a typical air-to-air intercooler adds a significant amount of volume to the intake system. Feet and feet of tubing, the intercooler itself, etc. That means a boost pressure drop, and a laggier response - how much depends on other factors, but it will happen. With water-methanol, we will not only NOT decrease boost, we will typically increase it a bit. A turbo compresses air using centrifugal force. Water-methanol does it with temperature. It all adds up. Plus - an air-to-air intercoolers efficiency depends on 2 things: airflow and ambient air temp (or temperature differential). If it is hot out, or if the asphalt has lots of heat eminating and you aren't traveling 100mph, the intercooler isn't going to work nearly as well as it should, or usually nearly as well as advertising numbers would have you believe. Water-methanol on the other hand, can reduce inlet temps while you are at a standstill in a burnout box in 140 ambient air temps. Your inlet temps can very well be lower than ambient - we see it all the time.

oliver · « **Reply #21 on:** October 15, 2008, 07:39:18 PM »

I see.... Can you hook up a brotha?.

nugen · « **Reply #22 on:** October 17, 2008, 06:21:31 PM »

Just for everyone's information, I posed the question about meth injection on top of 87 octane to the gurus at GIAC. They recommended against it, and suggested that it still wouldn't change the intrinsic volatility of the fuel. AWE commented that they've seen people run race tunes on 93 octane using meth injection, but have never seen meth injection with 87 octane. I guess that settles that! Fortunately, I found a gas station that still has manual accounting and they let me pay the difference between regular and super. Problem solved!

MileHighAssassin · « **Reply #23 on:** October 18, 2008, 12:09:39 AM »

Quote from: greggearhead on October 15, 2008, 03:38:48 PM

Quote from: MileHighAssassin on October 15, 2008, 07:33:01 AM
Boost Juice is a 50/50 mix.

Does anyone know what meth does to your oil? I have heard reports that it degrades your oil at a faster rate, anyone know the truth about this?

Unless you are pouring methanol into your oil fill hole, it won't do a thing. Gasoline is a powerful solvent. I have used old gas to clean greasy parts. We are injecting a small percentage of the amount of gasoline, and it is *water*-methanol. What happens when you get a little gasoline on your hands - dries them, burns a little maybe. What about washer fluid? Nothing. There's an SAE study where they removed the cooling system in a diesel engine and they used water-methanol injection as an *internal* cooling system to replace the water and radiator normally used. Even injecting the huge amount required for that, there wasn't any appreciable oil contamination or increased wear.

I would love to read that if you have a link or something handy.

I ask because I thought I saw some UOA's on TDICLUB and BTOG that showed that the meth broke down oil, I also thought I read some problems with the dye and other ingredients in washer fluid being kind of disturbing to oil.

I'll try to find them. Gasoline is actually pretty hard on oil as well.... fuel dilution.

Barry · « **Reply #24 on:** October 18, 2008, 12:52:04 AM »

how would methanol break down oil? It goes to the same firing cylinder that gas goes to, and last time I checked, gas and oil do not mix in an internal combustion 4 stroke motor

greggearhead · « **Reply #25 on:** October 18, 2008, 07:43:23 AM »

Quote from: GotMyDub on October 18, 2008, 12:52:04 AM

how would methanol break down oil? It goes to the same firing cylinder that gas goes to, and last time I checked, gas and oil do not mix in an internal combustion 4 stroke motor

Exactly - think about it. Gasoline or diesel can be used to clean greasy parts. They are powerful solvents. Now, washer fluid isn't a very powerful fluid. Even if it got into the oil (which is much, much less likely, as we are injecting a small percentage of the gasoline or diesel going into the combustion chamber), it wouldn't break it down.

And the dye causing problems?! Come on - it's dye. They dye gasoline, and diesel and everything. I bet it's pretty close to food coloring. The amount of dye in a gallon of washer fluid is probably less than 1%. Then, we inject say 10-20% of the diesel, so over a 500mile period, maybe there was a trace that went through the engine. If they can find and measure some of it in the oil, the engine is probably missing its piston rings and has a few other problems.

I'll get out hte SAE journal on Monday if I can.

greggearhead · « **Reply #26 on:** October 18, 2008, 07:53:45 AM »

Quote from: nugen on October 17, 2008, 06:21:31 PM

Just for everyone's information, I posed the question about meth injection on top of 87 octane to the gurus at GIAC. They recommended against it, and suggested that it still wouldn't change the intrinsic volatility of the fuel. AWE commented that they've seen people run race tunes on 93 octane using meth injection, but have never seen meth injection with 87 octane. I guess that settles that! Fortunately, I found a gas station that still has manual accounting and they let me pay the difference between regular and super. Problem solved!

OK - so they admit you can run a 110+ tune with 93, but they don't think that the same effect would happen with 87? Physics don't change, as far as I understand. The same effect, though appropriately reduced, would happen no matter what the base fuel is. Why would it "change the intrinsic volatility" of 93 but not 87? Which, we are actually not doing at all, but cooling the inlet temps significantly, which adds to reducing the likelihood of detonation, then slowing hte flamefront in the combustion chamber - which is the behavior higher octane fuel exhibits.

As an example, I have a customer with a Nissan Sentra. Built engine, naturally aspirated, 12.3:1 compression ratio. Before he had to run it on half 110 and half 93, and run it really rich, would still get some detonation, etc etc. With our system, injecting according to his MAF output, he runs it on 97 octane with windshield washer fluid. GIAC's argument it doesn't work with 87, but it does with 93 just doesn't make sense. David Vizard has used it to great effect over the years - running around 14-15:1 with as low as 80 octane.

MileHighAssassin · « **Reply #27 on:** October 18, 2008, 02:06:05 PM »

Quote from: greggearhead on October 18, 2008, 07:43:23 AM

Quote from: GotMyDub on October 18, 2008, 12:52:04 AM
how would methanol break down oil? It goes to the same firing cylinder that gas goes to, and last time I checked, gas and oil do not mix in an internal combustion 4 stroke motor

Exactly - think about it. Gasoline or diesel can be used to clean greasy parts. They are powerful solvents. Now, washer fluid isn't a very powerful fluid. Even if it got into the oil (which is much, much less likely, as we are injecting a small percentage of the gasoline or diesel going into the combustion chamber), it wouldn't break it down.

And the dye causing problems?! Come on - it's dye. They dye gasoline, and diesel and everything. I bet it's pretty close to food coloring. The amount of dye in a gallon of washer fluid is probably less than 1%. Then, we inject say 10-20% of the diesel, so over a 500mile period, maybe there was a trace that went through the engine. If they can find and measure some of it in the oil, the engine is probably missing its piston rings and has a few other problems. I'll get out hte SAE journal on Monday if I can.

It is leaving leftovers once it is burned, just like gasoline does when it is burned. Diesel creates soot. You are taking a product that wasn't exactly designed to be burned and burning it.

I am just reporting what I read. I would really like to do some testing myself. Maybe some before and after oil testing with and without meth/water injection.

I don't really know which is why I asked the question. I can honestly see how it could create problems. Just like burning WVO in a diesle degrades the oil. Using poor diesel will do the same thing.

greggearhead · « **Reply #28 on:** October 18, 2008, 02:29:39 PM »

Quote from: MileHighAssassin on October 18, 2008, 02:06:05 PM

It is leaving leftovers once it is burned, just like gasoline does when it is burned. Diesel creates soot. You are taking a product that wasn't exactly designed to be burned and burning it.

I am just reporting what I read. I would really like to do some testing myself. Maybe some before and after oil testing with and without meth/water injection.

I don't really know which is why I asked the question. I can honestly see how it could create problems. Just like burning WVO in a diesle degrades the oil. Using poor diesel will do the same thing.

OK, good on ya for asking questions, but come on. Why would 100% more dye from diesel or gasoline not leave a trace, but dye from washer fluid would? Our Boost Juice uses the SAME dye, and is designed to be burned. I get a kick out of these people theorizing on the web.

Diesel doesn't create soot. Soot is PM - Particulate Matter - or unburned diesel. Incomplete combustion of diesel fuel creates soot. Therefore the reason for MP Traps, or commonly known as DPF - Diesel Particulate Filters - in the exhaust of the new 6.7 Cummins, 6.4 Powerstroke, and the newest Durmax.

Just as a heads up - on the diesel front - out 6.7 Cummins with a DPF would go into regeneration mode (late injection timing events to spike EGTs to burn out the DPF PM) about 1-3 times a week depending on driving. This was totally stock. With a Bully Dog programmer (injecting more fuel and hence more unburnt fuel, or soot, if you will in the exhaust) it would go into regen every or every other day. With water-methanol on plus the Bully Dog - we didn't go into regen for 3-4 months. The Gold Mine in Cripple Creek is using our system just to reduce PM in the exhaust on a truck that never sees full-throttle duty and has had multiple service problems because it can't clean out the PTF in Regen. We can prevent it from filling. But some yahoo on a forum of course knows more about what our system will do in terms of oil contamination. Sorry - armchair experts bother me.

MileHighAssassin · « **Reply #29 on:** October 19, 2008, 08:57:09 AM »

I'm not hung up on the dye so much as I am what else is left over. To say nothing gets left behind is crazy. There is always something left behind. Like I said, if you run WVO your oil will be destroyed? Why is that?

I believe what you are saying with the particulate filters and a more complete burn, but the research I have done so far is saying that methanol can thin down oil, say 10w40 to a 0w30. So you could be sacrificing protection if you run the oil too long. Simple sollution would be to change the oil sooner. Methanol looks like it creates more (formic) acid in the oil as well.

When methanol burns it forms carbon dioxide and water, we assume the water is vaporized as well. It also looks like methanol is corrosive to aluminum.

Quote

Universal averages show typical wear levels from this type of engine (stock) after about 4500 miles on the oil. High metals are coming from a combination of wear-in and the methanol-injected turbo. Copper is very high; it may indicate a problem at the turbo (or another bronze part). Heat damage can be seen in
zinc and phosphorus levels. Silicon is likely from sealers and lubes applied at assembly. 1.0% fuel was found, but this is not a problem level. We aren't sure if this engine is simply going to make a lot of metal due to the methanol, or if there's a problem."

That quote is from an oil report that was done by Blackstone Labs.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1247580&fpart=1

I am not saying it will kill your engine but I think it should be looked into. Meth injection is great, I will probably be using it in the next year, but attention to your oil should be happening.

Here is a good thread about what could happen if that oil gets used up, thinned, etc...

http://forums.evolutionm.net/showthread.php?s=8debd3af0bf881452afa558e07dc5569&t=252352

AGain, I am not against meth, but I would watch my oil to see if there are any changes.

Scott · « **Reply #30 on:** October 19, 2008, 04:11:19 PM »

Those guys on Bob are NUTS and they tend to freak out with ethanol... especially E85. In terms of smarts.... yeah 75% of the people on there hurt my head when it comes to knowledge of lubricants and chemistry, but I cannot see how such minute fractions of methanol injected in a mist would be harmful in any way.

VWO4L · « **Reply #31 on:** October 19, 2008, 10:49:57 PM »

Quote from: greggearhead on October 18, 2008, 07:53:45 AM

Quote from: nugen on October 17, 2008, 06:21:31 PM
Just for everyone's information, I posed the question about meth injection on top of 87 octane to the gurus at GIAC. They recommended against it, and suggested that it still wouldn't change the intrinsic volatility of the fuel. AWE commented that they've seen people run race tunes on 93 octane using meth injection, but have never seen meth injection with 87 octane. I guess that settles that! Fortunately, I found a gas station that still has manual accounting and they let me pay the difference between regular and super. Problem solved!

OK - so they admit you can run a 110+ tune with 93, but they don't think that the same effect would happen with 87? Physics don't change, as far as I understand. The same effect, though appropriately reduced, would happen no matter what the base fuel is. Why would it "change the intrinsic volatility" of 93 but not 87? Which, we are actually not doing at all, but cooling the inlet temps significantly, which adds to reducing the likelihood of detonation, then slowing hte flamefront in the combustion chamber - which is the behavior higher octane fuel exhibits.

As an example, I have a customer with a Nissan Sentra. Built engine, naturally aspirated, 12.3:1 compression ratio. Before he had to run it on half 110 and half 93, and run it really rich, would still get some detonation, etc etc. With our system, injecting according to his MAF output, he runs it on 97 octane with windshield washer fluid. GIAC's argument it doesn't work with 87, but it does with 93 just doesn't make sense. David Vizard has used it to great effect over the years - running around 14-15:1 with as low as 80 octane.

I pretty much agree 100% with that thinking.

Honestly, I think the only reason they haven't seen someone try it before is because it normally wouldn't be necessary. It makes a bit more sense with the race tune on 93 Octane since race gas can't always be found everywhere and it's significantly more expensive than 93 Octane. So, you can run 93 octane and get the benefits of race fuel tuning for a more affordable price.
On the other hand, 93 octane is found much more readily and is not much more expensive than 87 octane. So, someone who wanted 93 octane power would just prefer to get the 93 octane programming with 93 octane fuel rather than to go through the trouble of running an 93 octane program with 87 octane fuel and water/meth injection.

This is a special case though and seems like it would work even if it's not something that would be done often. But, it sounds like he found an even better solution but it does limit the options significantly when you need to fuel up.

greggearhead · « **Reply #32 on:** October 20, 2008, 05:17:06 AM »

Quote from: MileHighAssassin on October 19, 2008, 08:57:09 AM

I'm not hung up on the dye so much as I am what else is left over. To say nothing gets left behind is crazy. There is always something left behind. Like I said, if you run WVO your oil will be destroyed? Why is that?

It also looks like methanol is corrosive to aluminum.

I am not saying it will kill your engine but I think it should be looked into. Meth injection is great, I will probably be using it in the next year, but attention to your oil should be happening.

Here is a good thread about what could happen if that oil gets used up, thinned, etc...

http://forums.evolutionm.net/showthread.php?s=8debd3af0bf881452afa558e07dc5569&t=252352

AGain, I am not against meth, but I would watch my oil to see if there are any changes.

OK - a few important things. Saying WVO destroys your oil is just plain silly. Why can so many people run it and be just fine? I am also gonna stereotype a little bit and say some of hte WVO/SVO users probably aren't the most religious in terms of maintenance, so their oil-change intervals aren't perfect.

greggearhead · « **Reply #33 on:** October 20, 2008, 05:29:51 AM »

Whoops - bumped return. To continue:

Methanol is corrosive to aluminum. When methanol is in full strength, 100%, and when it is in constant contact. It doesn't eat through the stuff like acid, but it will break it down over time. Think about washer fluid, or even our 50/50 Boost Juice - they don't even harm paint, with extended contact. Many years, at 8500 ft, Boost Juice (as washer fluid) used on a Black truck that is parked outside every day. Paint looks perfect.

I have customers that use custom aluminum tanks for their water-meth, and we receommend against it, because over a long period of time, it will break down - scaling, etc. But that is in constant contact, not a super fine mist wisping by something once in a while.

Yes, that EVO user probably had some oil thinning, etc. A big problem with some users is that they use STRAIGHT 100% methanol, not a 50/50 mix or similar. This presents a number of problems. These people think that if some methanol is good, more is better. The first problem that shows up is the fact that methanol, being an alcohol, is extremely forgiving of a rich mixture. That means you can get waaay too much methanol in there and still get a good burn, whereas a gasoline rich mixture would start to miss long before it reached that level of "richness." This means, the car will run great, but there will be more methanol in the combustion chamber than could be hoped to be burned, and there will be some oil dilution and associated problems in the long run.

If there was WATER used in the mix, it not only offers MORE benefit (water absorbs twice as much heat as Methanol and offers huge knock reduction), it helps to control the water/methanol vs. gasoline mixture ratio. If you inject too much WATER-methanol, you will quench the flamefront, similar to being too rich on gasoline. This prevents the stupid over-injection of straight methanol that happens when people decide to use something way outside of what it was designed for.

OK, now consider, as a company, we have tens of thousands of systems in operation right now. We have a number of Class7/8 OTR trucks using our systems. THere is one that has been using it since around 2005. This is an engine that sees around 100k miles/year. It gets torn down and rebuilt on a schedule somewhat like an airplane - so it has been apart many times. The only thing that has been changed, is that it doesn't have the carbon deposits it used to. No increased wear whatsoever. These aren't kids looking for 40hp, these are guys that have a LOT of money in their engines that rely on them to keep food on the table and a roof over their heads. If it caused extra wear or damage, they wouldn't touch it.

MileHighAssassin · « **Reply #34 on:** October 20, 2008, 07:03:34 AM »

Quote from: greggearhead on October 20, 2008, 05:17:06 AM

Quote from: MileHighAssassin on October 19, 2008, 08:57:09 AM
I'm not hung up on the dye so much as I am what else is left over. To say nothing gets left behind is crazy. There is always something left behind. Like I said, if you run WVO your oil will be destroyed? Why is that?

It also looks like methanol is corrosive to aluminum.

I am not saying it will kill your engine but I think it should be looked into. Meth injection is great, I will probably be using it in the next year, but attention to your oil should be happening.

Here is a good thread about what could happen if that oil gets used up, thinned, etc...

http://forums.evolutionm.net/showthread.php?s=8debd3af0bf881452afa558e07dc5569&t=252352

AGain, I am not against meth, but I would watch my oil to see if there are any changes.

OK - a few important things. Saying WVO destroys your oil is just plain silly. Why can so many people run it and be just fine? I am also gonna stereotype a little bit and say some of hte WVO/SVO users probably aren't the most religious in terms of maintenance, so their oil-change intervals aren't perfect.

Are you serious? I can show you hundreds of UOA's where WVO is extremely harsh on oil. I know TDI guys that switched to a two tank system, before they would run 10k mile oil changes and the oil would still be fine. Now they are lucky if they can get to 3k miles.

It is not a secret that WVO degrades your motor oil. To say they are not the most religious is silly, you are just making assumptions now.

Here is a guy that has been running WVO for 90k... this is his 80k update. He tore down the motor because of problems with his oil:
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=197032

What WVO can do to a modern motor:

Here is a report that is saying fully processed biodiesel can cause problems when even running it at 20%
http://www.imakenews.com/lng/e_article000962647.cfm?x=bbHf51M,b1bmpjq9

A UOA...

Look at his wear levels when he ran that oil longer (history).

MileHighAssassin · « **Reply #35 on:** October 20, 2008, 07:27:36 AM »

Quote from: greggearhead on October 20, 2008, 05:29:51 AM

Whoops - bumped return. To continue:

Methanol is corrosive to aluminum. When methanol is in full strength, 100%, and when it is in constant contact. It doesn't eat through the stuff like acid, but it will break it down over time. Think about washer fluid, or even our 50/50 Boost Juice - they don't even harm paint, with extended contact. Many years, at 8500 ft, Boost Juice (as washer fluid) used on a Black truck that is parked outside every day. Paint looks perfect.

IF you leave methanol in contact with aluminum it will eventually eat all the way through it

Quote from: greggearhead on October 20, 2008, 05:29:51 AM

Yes, that EVO user probably had some oil thinning, etc. A big problem with some users is that they use STRAIGHT 100% methanol, not a 50/50 mix or similar. This presents a number of problems. These people think that if some methanol is good, more is better. The first problem that shows up is the fact that methanol, being an alcohol, is extremely forgiving of a rich mixture. That means you can get waaay too much methanol in there and still get a good burn, whereas a gasoline rich mixture would start to miss long before it reached that level of "richness." This means, the car will run great, but there will be more methanol in the combustion chamber than could be hoped to be burned, and there will be some oil dilution and associated problems in the long run.

Well that is a start that you are admitting there could be "some" oil dilution

Quote from: greggearhead on October 20, 2008, 05:29:51 AM

OK, now consider, as a company, we have tens of thousands of systems in operation right now. We have a number of Class7/8 OTR trucks using our systems. THere is one that has been using it since around 2005. This is an engine that sees around 100k miles/year. It gets torn down and rebuilt on a schedule somewhat like an airplane - so it has been apart many times. The only thing that has been changed, is that it doesn't have the carbon deposits it used to. No increased wear whatsoever. These aren't kids looking for 40hp, these are guys that have a LOT of money in their engines that rely on them to keep food on the table and a roof over their heads. If it caused extra wear or damage, they wouldn't touch it.
How do you know it doesn't have increase wear? Have you done UOA's before? During the use? You are making assumptions that there is no wear or damage.

It will take a hell of a lot of use for meth to break down the oil on a class 7/8 truck than it will a small car/truck. Class 8 truck probably has an oil capacity of something like 30-60 quarts of oil, compared to a car that is probably a max of 5. There is WAY more oil in there, which is the same reason that in most cases you can drive those trucks without doing any major oil changes, but just get away with filter changes and adding top-off oil.

I asked a question in this thread, if anyone knew what meth did to oil. Your replies have been major assumptions. You are simply saying nothing has gone wrong so it must be alright, you have yet to show me that any of this information is true. Maybe I am expecting too much, but when you make comments like WVO doesn't cause oil degradation it clearly shows me you are uneducated on the subject.

I myself am an oil junky. I have done over 20 personal UOA's on various fluids, and have done much reading on oil and how certain motors, fuels and conditions effect it. I am by no means an expert but I give it a good effort to be as educated as I can be on the subject. Yes many at BTOG make your head hurt but there are many over there that know what they are doing many actually work in the field engineering oil for major companies.

If you want a REALLY good and a REALLY long oil read go here:
http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/showthread.php?t=136052

The authors background:
Dr. Haas is a physician and surgeon. He graduated from the University of Florida with a degree in biochemistry with honors. He studied motor oils since high school where he did independent studies on this topic. He studied the properties of viscosity.

When he was a general surgery resident in Chapel Hill he studied the flow mechanics of human blood. Today he continues his research by discussion of oil products with chemists in the field and chemists from the oil manufacturers.

He has personal racing experience in Formula Super Vee. He is his own Lamborghini and Ferrari as well as Mercedes mechanic.

LOS · « **Reply #36 on:** October 20, 2008, 07:54:42 AM »

what the fuck is wvo? Sorry im not a diesel guy...

Southcross · « **Reply #37 on:** October 20, 2008, 08:08:36 AM »

Quote from: LOS on October 20, 2008, 07:54:42 AM

what the fuck is wvo? Sorry im not a diesel guy...

Waste Vegetable Oil

I should also point out that Bio-Diesel and WVO are not the same thing.... Bio-Diesel runs super clean, WVO, even when "purified" isn't that pure.

MileHighAssassin · « **Reply #38 on:** October 20, 2008, 12:22:49 PM »

Waste vegetable oil is what the guys gathering oil from McDonalds run. There is also SVO which is Straight vegetable oil. Basically the same stuff as the McDonalds guys but it has not been used to cook with.

Biodiesel is brewed or put through a chemical conversion to remove the unusable waxes and fats/lipids from the oil. It is fairly easy to do but quality control is the issue.

LOS · « **Reply #39 on:** October 20, 2008, 05:19:25 PM »

Ahhh... so dumpster diving at macky d's does have its side effects... I knew that shit was too good to be true lol

MileHighAssassin · « **Reply #40 on:** October 21, 2008, 09:08:30 AM »

Quote from: LOS on October 20, 2008, 05:19:25 PM

Ahhh... so dumpster diving at macky d's does have its side effects... I knew that shit was too good to be true lol

If you have an older Diesel you can burn WVO pretty easily but finnicky injectors on modern cars make it harder. You really have to de-water and filter the oil pretty good.

Southcross · « **Reply #41 on:** October 21, 2008, 09:31:16 AM »

you also want to run WVO on an HOT engine only.... it doesn't burn as readily as Diesel. Probably a good cause for fowling if not fully warmed before switching over.

sad_rocc · « **Reply #42 on:** October 21, 2008, 01:01:32 PM »

Yep, here in NY there is quite a WVO following, especially toward the Adirondacks because diesel isn't as available as elsewhere and is also quite expensive. Saw a real nice setup on a 2000 jetta tdi, really well done. Copper coils carrying coolant around the filters, heater wrap around the fuel tank that turned on when the car did and a nicely done purging system integrated into the center part of the dash below the radio. You start on diesel, run until the temp gauge reads a certain degree on the WVO, then switch over. At the end of the trip, switch back to diesel to clear the lines. Works year round and quite a few of the cars that this guy has done have many, many miles on them. Cost like $2k installed. It's so common up north that people can't have any sort of indication on their car about WVO (like a bumper sticker that says This car powered by Big Mac residue!) because people would get pulled over and get the crap taxed out of them and fined big amounts. Apparently when it's in garbage form, used veggie oil is just used veggie oil. But spend the time getting the oil, converting/filtering the oil and then burnining it in your car and suddenly The Man wants the money he'd normall get selling you straight diesel.

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