Topic: 87 octane in a stage 3 car? (Read 634 times)

nugen · « **on:** October 11, 2008, 11:27:04 AM »

So here's the problem, I got a fuel card from work, meaning free gas for me. The problem is that I can only purchase regular, 87 octane fuel with it. I know my stage 3 S4 isn't going to appreciate that low octane. I've got some octane boost, but I'm not sure if that's the answer. What do you guys think? Meth injection? A gallon of 100 octane race fuel in every tank? Suggestion?

Barry · « **Reply #1 on:** October 11, 2008, 12:48:23 PM »

complain to your boss....

I am not sure of what kind of mix you'd need to run to turn 87 into 93...

on the other hand, whenever I drive my supercharged 4runner across country, I always buy a case of octane booster at walmart and then fill up with cheap shit and 2 cans of booster at every stop.... not sure what the overall octane turns out to be, but never had a problem with it... that is on a 6 lb pulley, and stock fuel injection / ECU.... you're talking about a stage 3 S.... slightly different

SwiftMKIII · « **Reply #2 on:** October 11, 2008, 02:27:04 PM »

Since you are getting free gas, I feel you might consider investing in a water meth kit.

...and since Nate is gone, I feel I must be the proponent in this case.

Rs4n · « **Reply #3 on:** October 11, 2008, 08:05:37 PM »

so how is New York?
remember me?
rs4??

Scott · « **Reply #4 on:** October 12, 2008, 04:34:35 AM »

Might be better off mixing with E85, but it would require some re-tuning I suspect. Do you have an EGT or AFR guage?

Scott · « **Reply #5 on:** October 12, 2008, 04:35:16 AM »

or work out a deal where you pay the offset each month (typically 20 cents per gallon over regular).

nugen · « **Reply #6 on:** October 12, 2008, 08:03:26 AM »

Quote from: Rs4n on October 11, 2008, 08:05:37 PM

so how is New York?
remember me?
rs4??

Hey Mike, truth be told, I miss alot of things about Colorado. Not the least of which is the significantly lower price of living and less restrictive traffic patters. I live on Long Island, so I'm fortunate to have some space to myself, but it's nothing like Colorado. I haven't found a big Euro tuner community, but a guy at my gym drives a McLaren SLR 722. Out here it seems like there's the top 10%, and then there's everyone else who is just struggling to pay their $1000 a month in property taxes after losing 40% of each paycheck for income taxes.

That being said, after so many years overseas it's really good to be close to family and friends. For the first time in 8 years I know exactly where I'll be for Thanksgiving, Christmas, and New Year. To me, that justifies the frustration of moving back east.

101stvet · « **Reply #7 on:** October 12, 2008, 10:14:33 AM »

not to sound like a smartass but why not buy a cheap car to commute in? then what does it matter , there's pep who would kill for free gas what ever octane i know i would with my 170 round trip daily

greggearhead · « **Reply #8 on:** October 12, 2008, 05:51:40 PM »

If you run water-meth and use 30% methanol, 70% water (more commonly known as blue -20 Washer Fluid), it will add about 15-20 points of octane, or you would be at around 105 octane. Meaning you would have octane to spare, or could tune it more aggressively for some more performance.

Jesus · « **Reply #9 on:** October 13, 2008, 06:37:39 AM »

Greg are you saying you can just run straight off the shelf washer fluid?

Barry · « **Reply #10 on:** October 13, 2008, 09:04:11 AM »

thats exactly what he is saying.... Nate used to buy a bottle of waher fluid everytime, or every other time he filled up at the station... simple old washer fluid is the perfect mix....

SwiftMKIII · « **Reply #11 on:** October 13, 2008, 09:48:03 AM »

Quote from: GotMyDub on October 13, 2008, 09:04:11 AM

simple old washer fluid is the perfect mix....

... so long as it is the -20 mix

greggearhead · « **Reply #12 on:** October 13, 2008, 04:22:15 PM »

Right. Blue in color, and rated for minus 20 deg F is 30% methanol, 70% water.

Another thing that brings up is that you can use your washer fluid tank as the injection reservoir, and have a factory low-level light on most cars already. Cool stuff. My Mk3 is set up that way.

LOS · « **Reply #13 on:** October 13, 2008, 07:22:59 PM »

Thats pretty slick... I'll be lookin to do that with my gti once I get some stuff taken care of.

oliver · « **Reply #14 on:** October 14, 2008, 10:24:21 PM »

Hey Greg can a water meth setup replace an intercooler setup?. I'd like to do an intercooler setup but kinda don't want to hack up the bumper and some stuff just to make it fit and I'm trying to keep it clean looking without all those pipes crap. If only an air to water setup is not so expensive....

VWO4L · « **Reply #15 on:** October 15, 2008, 02:21:04 AM »

Quote from: GotMyDub on October 13, 2008, 09:04:11 AM

thats exactly what he is saying.... Nate used to buy a bottle of waher fluid everytime, or every other time he filled up at the station... simple old washer fluid is the perfect mix....

Did no one ever pay attention to Nate??

We've had this very same conversation here at least once before. It's not like you guys are never on here or anything

LOS · « **Reply #16 on:** October 15, 2008, 06:27:30 AM »

So greg, what is the mixture that y ou guys sell? IE the Boost Juice? Is that a stronger mixture? If I remember right that stuff was red...

Smokestack · « **Reply #17 on:** October 15, 2008, 07:32:38 AM »

Quote from: oliver on October 14, 2008, 10:24:21 PM

Hey Greg can a water meth setup replace an intercooler setup?. I'd like to do an intercooler setup but kinda don't want to hack up the bumper and some stuff just to make it fit and I'm trying to keep it clean looking without all those pipes crap. If only an air to water setup is not so expensive....

Nate never seemed to have a problem running just water meth on his mk2. I believe I remember him saying a couple of times that water meth was more efficient than an inter cooler, which made a big intercooler a waste of money.

MileHighAssassin · « **Reply #18 on:** October 15, 2008, 07:33:01 AM »

Boost Juice is a 50/50 mix.

Does anyone know what meth does to your oil? I have heard reports that it degrades your oil at a faster rate, anyone know the truth about this?

Gallep · « **Reply #19 on:** October 15, 2008, 12:01:36 PM »

Side Note:

I've made 4 trips to Dallas and back over the past 6 months. On those long trips I've filled up with 85 Octane, that's it. (1.8T w/ REVO) When I'm cruising 700 miles with the occasional 20 psi spike everything ran fine; i.e. no limp mode. I did notice a performance decrease when trying to pass slower traffic but that was expected.

greggearhead · « **Reply #20 on:** October 15, 2008, 03:38:48 PM »

Quote from: MileHighAssassin on October 15, 2008, 07:33:01 AM

Boost Juice is a 50/50 mix.

Does anyone know what meth does to your oil? I have heard reports that it degrades your oil at a faster rate, anyone know the truth about this?

Unless you are pouring methanol into your oil fill hole, it won't do a thing. Gasoline is a powerful solvent. I have used old gas to clean greasy parts. We are injecting a small percentage of the amount of gasoline, and it is *water*-methanol. What happens when you get a little gasoline on your hands - dries them, burns a little maybe. What about washer fluid? Nothing. There's an SAE study where they removed the cooling system in a diesel engine and they used water-methanol injection as an *internal* cooling system to replace the water and radiator normally used. Even injecting the huge amount required for that, there wasn't any appreciable oil contamination or increased wear.

Oliver - YES, it can replace the need for an intercooler. Usually up to about 20psi, water-meth injection that is accurate can perform as well (or usually much better than) an intercooler.

Compare them at a base level - a typical air-to-air intercooler adds a significant amount of volume to the intake system. Feet and feet of tubing, the intercooler itself, etc. That means a boost pressure drop, and a laggier response - how much depends on other factors, but it will happen. With water-methanol, we will not only NOT decrease boost, we will typically increase it a bit. A turbo compresses air using centrifugal force. Water-methanol does it with temperature. It all adds up. Plus - an air-to-air intercoolers efficiency depends on 2 things: airflow and ambient air temp (or temperature differential). If it is hot out, or if the asphalt has lots of heat eminating and you aren't traveling 100mph, the intercooler isn't going to work nearly as well as it should, or usually nearly as well as advertising numbers would have you believe. Water-methanol on the other hand, can reduce inlet temps while you are at a standstill in a burnout box in 140 ambient air temps. Your inlet temps can very well be lower than ambient - we see it all the time.

oliver · « **Reply #21 on:** October 15, 2008, 07:39:18 PM »

I see.... Can you hook up a brotha?.

nugen · « **Reply #22 on:** October 17, 2008, 06:21:31 PM »

Just for everyone's information, I posed the question about meth injection on top of 87 octane to the gurus at GIAC. They recommended against it, and suggested that it still wouldn't change the intrinsic volatility of the fuel. AWE commented that they've seen people run race tunes on 93 octane using meth injection, but have never seen meth injection with 87 octane. I guess that settles that! Fortunately, I found a gas station that still has manual accounting and they let me pay the difference between regular and super. Problem solved!

MileHighAssassin · « **Reply #23 on:** October 18, 2008, 12:09:39 AM »

Quote from: greggearhead on October 15, 2008, 03:38:48 PM

Quote from: MileHighAssassin on October 15, 2008, 07:33:01 AM
Boost Juice is a 50/50 mix.

Does anyone know what meth does to your oil? I have heard reports that it degrades your oil at a faster rate, anyone know the truth about this?

Unless you are pouring methanol into your oil fill hole, it won't do a thing. Gasoline is a powerful solvent. I have used old gas to clean greasy parts. We are injecting a small percentage of the amount of gasoline, and it is *water*-methanol. What happens when you get a little gasoline on your hands - dries them, burns a little maybe. What about washer fluid? Nothing. There's an SAE study where they removed the cooling system in a diesel engine and they used water-methanol injection as an *internal* cooling system to replace the water and radiator normally used. Even injecting the huge amount required for that, there wasn't any appreciable oil contamination or increased wear.

I would love to read that if you have a link or something handy.

I ask because I thought I saw some UOA's on TDICLUB and BTOG that showed that the meth broke down oil, I also thought I read some problems with the dye and other ingredients in washer fluid being kind of disturbing to oil.

I'll try to find them. Gasoline is actually pretty hard on oil as well.... fuel dilution.

Barry · « **Reply #24 on:** October 18, 2008, 12:52:04 AM »

how would methanol break down oil? It goes to the same firing cylinder that gas goes to, and last time I checked, gas and oil do not mix in an internal combustion 4 stroke motor

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