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Author Topic: Creation Supported by Science?  (Read 203 times)

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SwiftMKIII

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Creation Supported by Science?
« on: July 21, 2008, 04:49:01 PM »

So, if anyone wants to hear a scientific defense of creationism, Dr. G. Thomas Sharp will be speaking at Sunnyside Christian Church (corner of Constitution and Murray) from 7 to 8, Monday thru Wednesday.  I am sure it will have a Christian bias, but is supposed to be scientific support none the less.

Come on out.
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GTiGuy

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Re: Creation Supported by Science?
« Reply #1 on: July 21, 2008, 05:55:26 PM »

 :shocked: :lmao:

Not to shit on your religion..... but when you start to talk about religion and science together, you lost me.

This is the same guy that opened the new museum of earth history, where they have dinosaur statues and state that we lived with the dinosaurs.... and get this, less than 6000 years ago. (because we all know the earth was created 6000 years old :rolleyes: )

Quote from: CTF
That is, if the God of sacred Scripture is our Creator, then He is our owner and because He is—only He can set the rules and we, His children, must obediently follow them, asking no questions.

^That is the opposite of science. You have to be able to question everything, and test, test and test again. That is the basis for the scientific method, and if you blindly follow without raising a hand, you in no way are helping science as a whole.

Quote from: CTF
From a biblical standpoint, it is extremely clear that God created all land animals on day six of the creation week (dinosaurs are land animals), and that He gathered two (male and female) of each kind of land animal into the ark.

I can't even imagine how any part of that can be true. Here is some bed time reading, and it conveys great points that I don't want to type out.  http://www.abarnett.demon.co.uk/atheism/noahs_ark.html

The views about dinosaurs and people living together are outrageous also. Your evidence is from a few footprints, drawings from inca burial sites/cave paintings, and lets not forget the bible. This is obviously different than the vast evidence compiled by real scientists.

i could go on and on, but reading things about the CTF, G. Thomas Sharp, and the ramblings makes me want to jump off a cliff

Cliffnotes: Religion and science do not, and cannot intertwine. Believing that the bible is the ultimate end all, and not listening to fact or opinions on the contrary of the bible is blind faith, and in no way helps future mankind. (And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him. Leviticus 24:16.... awesome, that makes sense)

Go to the seminar, listen to the nut job, then do your research at home and make an informed decision. We can discuss this further if you like


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mikeminnillo

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Re: Creation Supported by Science?
« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2008, 06:56:33 PM »

this sounds like a
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Scott

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Re: Creation Supported by Science?
« Reply #3 on: July 21, 2008, 07:05:03 PM »

I think it is possible to believe in a mix of the two... I mean if God created us, then does it not makes sense that he also created evolution and our ability to not only find it, but eventually figure it all out and explain it rationally?

I am absolutely cool with the Bible, but even the best men tweak stories to make them fit their own viewpoint.  The Bible might be the word of God, but I am not dumb enough to think that every single person that wrote a piece of it got it EXACTLY right, so there is some room for interpretation and analysis.
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SwiftMKIII

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Re: Creation Supported by Science?
« Reply #4 on: July 21, 2008, 09:15:16 PM »

EDIT: So, I'll apologize beforehand for length...

It truly seems that mikeminillo is right...


I think what Scott is saying is a general basis for what this "nut job" talks about.

Eric, I'll admit that upon submitting this reply, I have not done my "bedtime reading" but wanted to make a reply prior to getting involved in that information (don't worry, I'll read it before I make another post).

I did go listen to Dr. Sharp tonight, and realized while there that he makes no claim to Creation being a scientifically proven occurence.  He did spend a few minutes explaining why he doesn't make that claim.  To call creation, or evolution (big bang, darwinism, etc.), a theory is a gross misnomer.  Given the scientific method, calling either a "theory" is like calling a Harry Potter book factual reference material.  As a generalization in scientific terms, a theory is an unproven set of data that, based on more data could be proven or disproven.  Not many of us can go back to the beginnings of this world to prove or disprove either.  Dr. Sharp rightfully calls both creation and evolution models, though I suppose someone somewhere could try to defend that if you twist the meaning of theory, both are.

Now to respond to some of your comments:

Not to shit on your religion..... but when you start to talk about religion and science together, you lost me.

I understand that I likely believe differently than most of you guys about many issues based on my Christian beliefs.

This is the same guy that opened the new museum of earth history, where they have dinosaur statues and state that we lived with the dinosaurs.... and get this, less than 6000 years ago. (because we all know the earth was created 6000 years old :rolleyes: )

Yes, this is the same guy.  Yes he believes the earth is 6000 years old.




Quote from: CTF
That is, if the God of sacred Scripture is our Creator, then He is our owner and because He is—only He can set the rules and we, His children, must obediently follow them, asking no questions.

^That is the opposite of science. You have to be able to question everything, and test, test and test again. That is the basis for the scientific method, and if you blindly follow without raising a hand, you in no way are helping science as a whole.


Dr. Sharp does also state clearly that, if you cannot prove or disprove creation or evolution, both are based in a choice to place faith in one or the other.  As a Christian, Dr. Sharp choses to place faith in what the bible has to offer as information.


Quote from: CTF
From a biblical standpoint, it is extremely clear that God created all land animals on day six of the creation week (dinosaurs are land animals), and that He gathered two (male and female) of each kind of land animal into the ark.

I can't even imagine how any part of that can be true.

I suppose you have an issue with "God created" in your difficulty with believing this?

The views about dinosaurs and people living together are outrageous also. Your evidence is from a few footprints, drawings from inca burial sites/cave paintings, and lets not forget the bible. This is obviously different than the vast evidence compiled by real scientists.

And evidence that mankind evolved from apes is so much less outrageous?  If this is the case, why are there still apes?  Did some of them just decide "You know, I really like eating bugs off of these guys and throwing my own poop.  I think I am going to stay an ape instead of moving on to the top of the food chain."?

I'll admit that I don't have all of the answers regarding this topic.  I'll even venture to guess Dr. Sharp would admit to not knowing all the answers.  Do you honestly believe that these real scientists actually know all the answers?  If you do, I am not the only crazy one here.

i could go on and on, but reading things about the CTF, G. Thomas Sharp, and the ramblings makes me want to jump off a cliff

Please, do not do either.  The VW world would lose a very creative mind if you did.  (Intended to be sincere, please do not read this with any noted sarcasm)

Cliffnotes: Religion and science do not, and cannot intertwine. Believing that the bible is the ultimate end all, and not listening to fact or opinions on the contrary of the bible is blind faith, and in no way helps future mankind.

This is truly a comment based on perspective.  From the other side of the fence, as a believer in the bible, "Believing that the bible is the ultimate end all" does in fact help future mankind.  It gives them the opportunity of eternal spiritual life.  Like I said, it all depends on perspective.

(And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him. Leviticus 24:16.... awesome, that makes sense)

Taken in correct context this says something like "claiming to be God was punishable by death in the Jewish law."  The reason the pharisees could talk the Jews into killing Jesus.

Go to the seminar, listen to the nut job, then do your research at home and make an informed decision. We can discuss this further if you like


E
As i mentioned, I did go and will continue to this week.  I'll be happy to continue this conversation after I read up on your perspective.  You, and anyone else, are welcome to come listen to this perspective as well. 



« Last Edit: July 21, 2008, 10:56:15 PM by SwiftMKIII »
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SwiftMKIII

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Re: Creation Supported by Science?
« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2008, 10:27:57 PM »

Here is some bed time reading, and it conveys great points that I don't want to type out.  http://www.abarnett.demon.co.uk/atheism/noahs_ark.html

Interesting reading, and there are definitely some points that I wouldn't have a clue as to how to address without utilizing some this author's "cop-
outs".  I must admit though, I was a believer before I ever heard the story of the ark.
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Re: Creation Supported by Science?
« Reply #6 on: July 22, 2008, 02:31:21 AM »

I've kind of always been one who believed that science and religion can coincide, at least since around 8th grade or so I've felt that way.  Anyhow, one day when I was in college, I was at Barnes & Noble and saw this book that I felt I just had to pick up.  It's called "The Science of God" by Gerald L. Schroeder http://search.barnesandnoble.com/Science-of-God/Gerald-L-Schroeder/e/9780767903035/?itm=1

I read it and really enjoyed it.  It actually agreed with a few of the beliefs I already held and gave me some other interesting perspectives as well.  It covers virtually all of the questions that are brought up when this topic is discussed.  The Big Bang, Dinosaurs, the age of the Earth, evolution, free will and more, it's all there. 

I ended up lending the book to one of my friends a few years back and never got it back.  I repurchased it a few months ago though and have been slowly reading the book again and I'm a little more than halfway through now.

I highly recommend the book to anyone at least somewhat interested in the subject(from any perspective).  I've also been wanting to check out his other books as well.
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Re: Creation Supported by Science?
« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2008, 10:38:16 PM »

Looks like half of the responces are gone  ??? I was hoping to expand on some of the ideas :(


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SwiftMKIII

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Re: Creation Supported by Science?
« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2008, 08:35:06 AM »

Apparently disappeared with the hardware move. 

I suppose to a degree it was better for you to have not gone to the last night.  He completely changed directions and basically focused on US history and the Christian beliefs that were so strong in the creation of our country.  He has a passion for spending time in this because of what he talked about as many scientists, especially in early dinosaur paleontology, pushing an agenda that was contrary to the bible.  Regardless, the "lecture" on Wednesday was not a defense in scientific discussion but in the Christian basis of early US history.
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Re: Creation Supported by Science?
« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2008, 03:39:58 PM »

This is a bit off topic, but I did not want to start a second religion thread so I am hijacking...

My church has been doing a series called "Scary Stuff" and it was all about things beyond our control. Each week was one subject, and they were angels, demons, death, heaven, hell, and the end of the world.  The last one (end of the world) was a pretty wild message!  I had never, ever heard it put quite like this and neither had anyone else I talked with.  If you want to check it out and discuss it, you can see it on their website...  the video is not up yet, but here is a link to the MP3:

http://www.fcfchurch.com/resources/messageseries/
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GTiGuy

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Re: Creation Supported by Science?
« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2008, 06:53:26 PM »

I suppose to a degree it was better for you to have not gone to the last night.  He completely changed directions and basically focused on US history and the Christian beliefs that were so strong in the creation of our country.  He has a passion for spending time in this because of what he talked about as many scientists, especially in early dinosaur paleontology, pushing an agenda that was contrary to the bible.  Regardless, the "lecture" on Wednesday was not a defense in scientific discussion but in the Christian basis of early US history.


I believe some founders (or early leaders of the country) had christian beliefs, but quite a few others didnt. Here are a few quotes from some:

The Treaty of Tripoli, passed by the U.S. Senate in 1797, read in part: "The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion."
Benjamin Franklin "The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason "
Thomas Jefferson "The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus…will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter "
James Madison "What have been Christianity’s fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution. "
Ethan Allen "That Jesus Christ was not God is evidence from his own words." Allen noted that he was generally "denominated a Deist, the reality of which I never disputed, being conscious that I am no Christian."
John Adams ""The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity.  Nowhere in the Gospels do we find a precept for Creeds, Confessions, Oaths, Doctrines, and whole cartloads of other foolish trumpery that we find in Christianity."

were:
Samuel Adams "Principally, and first of all, I resign my soul to the Almighty Being who gave it, and my body I commit to the dust, relying on the merits of Jesus Christ for the pardon of my sins."
Alexander Hamilton "I have a tender reliance on the mercy of the Almighty, through the merits of the Lord Jesus Christ. I am a sinner. I look to Him for mercy; pray for me."
Patrick Henry "This is all the inheritance I give to my dear family. The religion of Christ will give them one which will make them rich indeed. "
John Jay "I have long been of opinion that the evidence of the truth of Christianity requires only to be carefully examined to produce conviction in candid minds"


George Washington early on in his life believed, but from what the evidence points to either kept his beliefs quiet or changed his mind

Some were, some werent, but thank goodness they gave the right of the country to believe in whatever you want without persecution. Its a damn shame the seperation of church and state isnt enforced more, and how the founders wanted.

Now, not sure if the speaker talked about "In God we Trust" or not, but here is a little reading:

The national motto adopted by the Founders was inscribed next to the Great Seal of the United States, a decoration devised under the supervision of Franklin, Adams and Jefferson. It was Jefferson who suggested "E Pluribus Unum," and that slogan was adopted in 1782, five years before the Constitutional convention of 1787.

    It wasn't until nearly a century later, though, that "In God We Trust" was seriously proposed as a motto. Writing in her book "Freedom Under Siege," (J.P.Tarcher, Los Angeles, 1974), Madalyn O'Hair delineated the historical background for readers:

"In 1861, the Reverend M.R. Watkinson persuaded the secretary of the Treasury to try to introduce 'In God We Trust' as a motto on the coins of the land, arguing on the theological premise that in a Judeo-Christian nation, 'There is but one God.' Congress, then beginning to be responsive to the religious community and the votes that it was presumed to control, passed the Coinage Act of April 22, 1864, which designated that 'In God We Trust' be put on coins 'when and where sufficient space in the balance of the design' would permit it."

   Rev. Watkinson's missive was directed to Secretary of the Treasury Samuel P. Chase. It read:

"Dear Sir: You are about to submit your annual report to the Congress respecting the affairs of the national finances.

    One fact touching our currency has hitherto been seriously overlooked. I mean the recognition of the Almighty God in some form on our coins.

    You are probably a Christian. What if our Republic were not shattered beyond reconstruction? Would not the antiquaries of succeeding centuries rightly reason from our past that we were a heathen nation? What I propose is that instead of the goddess of liberty we shall next inside the 13 stars a ring inscribed with the words PERPETUAL UNION; within the allseeing eye, crowned with a halo; beneath this eye the American flag bearing in its field stars equal to the number of the States united; in the folds of the bars the words GOD, LIBERTY, LAW..."

    Seven days after the transmittal of Watkinson's letter, Secretary Chase, on November 20, 1861, wrote to James Pollock, Director of the Mint at Philadelphia. He instructed Pollock to prepare a motto, declaring "No nation can be strong except in the strength of God, or safe except in His defense. The trust of our people in God should be declared on our national coins..." A design was submitted in December, 1863 proposing OUR GOD AND OUR COUNTRY, or the alternative of GOD, OUR TRUST. On December 9, 1863, Chase formally approved a third slogan in a letter to the Mint Director.

    "I approve your mottoes (sic), only suggesting that on that with the Washington obverse the motto should begin with the word OUR, so as to read OUR GOD AND OUR COUNTRY. And on that with the shield, it should be changed so as to read: IN GOD WE TRUST."

   "In God We Trust" thus appeared on the short-lived 1864 two-cent coin. It has been used continuously on the one-cent coin since 1909, and on dimes since 1916. Since July 1, 1908,"In God We Trust" has also been stamped on gold coins, silver dollars, quarters and half-dollar coins

All paper currency issued after October 1, 1957 included the IN GOD WE TRUST national motto.



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ianacole

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Re: Creation Supported by Science?
« Reply #11 on: August 06, 2008, 07:35:05 PM »

And evidence that mankind evolved from apes is so much less outrageous?  If this is the case, why are there still apes?  Did some of them just decide "You know, I really like eating bugs off of these guys and throwing my own poop.  I think I am going to stay an ape instead of moving on to the top of the food chain."?

Some ant species evolved from wasps, so why are wasps still around?  Evolution is a function of localized requirements driving genetic changes necessary to adapt and overcome the obstacles facing the continuation of a species in that area - where man initially evolved from apes, apes no longer appear.
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