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[DutchVDub]

I think I'm goinmg to have to yuppie it up and convert my Jeep to E85.  There is a company that makes a completely lug and drive kit for my Jeep.  It costs about 425$ and still allows you to run regular gasoline when neccesary with no I'll effects.  I talked to the distributor (located in Thornton, CO) and to a guy on NAXJA (North American XJ Association) and while you do lose a bit of mileage you also get morew power.  Also, the E85 pump thats down the street frommy house sells it for about 2.00$ a gallon.  The guy on NAXJA said even with the 10% loss in mileage he has been saving money, plus he loves the extra power.  You don't need to change your plugs, but the site that sells it also has a PulStar Puls sparkplug that they said helps restore mileage back towards gasoline levels and also delivers even more more.  I'm going to try and meet up with the guy on NAXJA and check his rig out for myself but I think this will be the next major mod for my Jeep.  Not only does it help my pocket book, it helps the enviroment and CO's economy.  E85 is made and refined in CO.  Plus its like flipping the bird to Haji.

Now I just need to get me a TDI and convert it run biodiesel.  Then my hippie conversion will be complete.  

[Gallep]

A guy in Denver (Denvernoob), that's on Audizine did an E85 conversion on his B6 A4 1.8T with a K04 upgrade and is putting down some nice numbers.

[DutchVDub]

Oh yeah, the website is Change2E85.com

They are local in CO, well local to Denver

[Jesus]

Interesting...
That kits seems to be nothing more than a piggy back computer between the injectors and stock injector wiring harness ... seems almost too simple to be true.

I'm a big supporter of ethanol so I hope this works out for you 

[toxicavenger]

Yeah I am in the process of convincing my wife to let me do the ECU E85 for my SAAB. But so far it has been a tough sell since it is 1k for it!

[methodicalmayhem]

A guy in Denver (Denvernoob), that's on Audizine did an E85 conversion on his B6 A4 1.8T with a K04 upgrade and is putting down some nice numbers.

Pete

Ted's not the only VAG running E85 in the state, just the only one to let it be known on a forum with some info behind it, nor is he doing it to be a hippie like you Dutch. There are 3 that I know of including Ted. Two of which are running perfectly (Ted's B6 and Randy of Autobahn and his B5 Passat), the third is just under going the conversion so all the kinks need to be worked out still (my car). Not sure what gains/losses you can expect with a Jeep but what I have seen/experienced so far is well worth the conversion, plus I wont complain about saving $10 a tank for the performance gains.

[VWO4L]

Interesting...
That kits seems to be nothing more than a piggy back computer between the injectors and stock injector wiring harness ... seems almost too simple to be true.

I'm a big supporter of ethanol so I hope this works out for you 

Agreed, I'd make sure the kit comes with everything you need.  I think one of the biggest problems with switching a car over to run E85 is that you need to replace the fuel lines.  I believe that E85 is more corrosive to the normal fuel lines and can cause issues.

See here for more info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E85_in_standard_engines

E85 can also cause engine damage, since prolonged exposure to high concentrations of ethanol may corrode metal and rubber parts in older engines (pre-1995) designed primarily for gasoline. Post-1995 fuel-injected cars are designed to accept E10 fuel, and may be tolerant of higher concentrations of ethanol to varying degrees, usually up to at least 20%

[Jesus]

Interesting...
That kits seems to be nothing more than a piggy back computer between the injectors and stock injector wiring harness ... seems almost too simple to be true.

I'm a big supporter of ethanol so I hope this works out for you 

Agreed, I'd make sure the kit comes with everything you need.  I think one of the biggest problems with switching a car over to run E85 is that you need to replace the fuel lines.  I believe that E85 is more corrosive to the normal fuel lines and can cause issues.

Yes ..and that's why I said it seemed too simple. .. then again E85 is actually a blend so maybe it isn't as corrosive as pure ethanol.  Don't know and I'm not a chemist

[Smokestack]

Interesting...
That kits seems to be nothing more than a piggy back computer between the injectors and stock injector wiring harness ... seems almost too simple to be true.

I'm a big supporter of ethanol so I hope this works out for you 

Agreed, I'd make sure the kit comes with everything you need.  I think one of the biggest problems with switching a car over to run E85 is that you need to replace the fuel lines.  I believe that E85 is more corrosive to the normal fuel lines and can cause issues.

Yes ..and that's why I said it seemed too simple. .. then again E85 is actually a blend so maybe it isn't as corrosive as pure ethanol.  Don't know and I'm not a chemist

E85 eats rubber. Any fuel lines and seals that contact the fuel will dry out and crack causing leaks. Generally the kits come with viton (sp?) fuel lines. Other than that you just need to richen up the fuel mixture a little.

[fotograf]

I know several people who have converted to E85. They are the only dubs in CO to do so so far to my knowledge and the various performance companies involved with Autobahn Premier are actually writing their programs off of these cars. (all 3 of these were done at Autobahn Premier)
Randy @ Autobahn premier Service in Littleton
methodicalymay hem (Josh) and his Mk4 Jetta
Denver noob and his A4 s-line

The mod is not a money-saving mod by any means. the cost of the equipment and the frequency that you will be filling up (the guy lied, if you used to fill up once a week, you will be filling up closer to once every 5 days. And you better keep off your throttle, E85 burns up FAST) makes the mod entirely a performance mod. I believe E85 is somewhere near 105 octane?

[Rukh]

The mod is not a money-saving mod by any means. the cost of the equipment and the frequency that you will be filling up (the guy lied, if you used to fill up once a week, you will be filling up closer to once every 5 days. And you better keep off your throttle, E85 burns up FAST) makes the mod entirely a performance mod.

I beg to differ. Converting to E85 is not only a performance mod, it is a means to use an alternative fuel source to lessen one's reliability on the oil market. Plus, ethanol can be processed from goods produced entirely within the domestic economy, thereby decreasing our dependence on other nations for fuel. As a bit of a tangent: we now get the majority of our oil from Canada (~859 million barrels in 2006), more from them than the entire Persian Gulf region combined (~807 million barrels in 2006). Part of the reason that fuel prices have gone up so much in the past couple years is precisely because of that, due to the extra refining that oil from Canada's tar sands needs to reduce its high sulfur content.

Anyway, as great a thing as these conversions are, and while I believe ethanol is a great way to reduce our dependence on other nations for our fuel, corn-based ethanol is not the silver bullet that many think it is. There are a great many other solutions that I think would be better to pursue - for a great many reasons.

[fotograf]

The mod is not a money-saving mod by any means. the cost of the equipment and the frequency that you will be filling up (the guy lied, if you used to fill up once a week, you will be filling up closer to once every 5 days. And you better keep off your throttle, E85 burns up FAST) makes the mod entirely a performance mod.

I beg to differ. Converting to E85 is not only a performance mod, it is a means to use an alternative fuel source to lessen one's reliability on the oil market. Plus, ethanol can be processed from goods produced entirely within the domestic economy, thereby decreasing our dependence on other nations for fuel. As a bit of a tangent: we now get the majority of our oil from Canada (~859 million barrels in 2006), more from them than the entire Persian Gulf region combined (~807 million barrels in 2006). Part of the reason that fuel prices have gone up so much in the past couple years is precisely because of that, due to the extra refining that oil from Canada's tar sands needs to reduce its high sulfur content.

Anyway, as great a thing as these conversions are, and while I believe ethanol is a great way to reduce our dependence on other nations for our fuel, corn-based ethanol is not the silver bullet that many think it is. There are a great many other solutions that I think would be better to pursue - for a great many reasons.

This is true. E85 does reduce our dependency on oil at the spectacular rate of an inth of a percentage. E85 will last for a long time, but it is also driving up the cost of everything else that we use everyday.

1. It would take a corn farm the size of Texas to even make 1% of difference.
2. Regular farmers are all moving to growing corn because it makes money, leaving higher demand for other crops, but less supply ie: higher prices
3. What do cows eat? Corn. The price of corn is going up as well because there is more demand, driving prices of everyday items such as milk and meat up.

I'm not saying that E85 will die, it is too government funded, but in my opinion it is far from good for the economy. We should focus more on technologies like Bluetec and ultra-efficient diesel engines, and start drilling our own resources. I believe I once heard that we have more oil under Texas than in the entire Middle East. (don't hold me to it)

[Rukh]

Personally, I agree with what you're saying - to a certain point. Corn ethanol is one of the least efficient biofuels out there. We should be focusing on rapeseed biodiesel if we really want to make a big difference. But the facts are that the corn ethanol infrastructure is already in place, and Americans don't like diesels (for the most part). I'd say we're stuck with corn ethanol for a while, and that's better than nothing (even at minuscule percentages, that's a lot of oil being offset).

I find it amazing that Honda is rolling out a relatively production-ready fuel-cell car next year, and that gives me a lot of hope for that technology. While Hydrogen is not a fuel source, it is one of the best batteries we have, and is a very convenient way to power a car electrically. If we can add efficient means of "producing" hydrogen electrically (nuclear, hydro, wind, and solar power plants), it very well could be the viable replacement that we're looking for.

[Gallep]

If I had a diesel, I would set up a veggie oil filtering system in my garage and run that shit off restaurant oil waste

[Rukh]

You know, I did the calcs on making biodiesel from restaurant waste oil, and once you factor in the cost of the additives, amortized equipment, and your time (collecting, possibly cleaning, filtering, and refining) it comes out to about the same price as dinodiesel per gallon. Since biodiesel is available here in Denver from Blue Sun, it's really not worth it to make your own.

Now, if you're talking about running on pre-warmed and filtered straight veggie oil, that's a different story.

[MileHighAssassin]

I would be interested in how this works for you.  Up in Fort Collins I saw  an E85 pump that was below (I think $1.89) $2 a gallon.  I have heard that your economy hit is closer to 20%, but even at that price it would be worth it.

IRL ran 100% Ethanol this last year.  They are actually getting better power and economy numbers, but I assume they are advancing timing madly to account for the much higher octane rating (I think it is like 114 octane).

[DutchVDub]

I agree that corn based ethanol is not the answer to ending our dependance on oil, but it is a way to help in the mean time.  Personally I wish America would wake up to diesel and especially biodiesel.  I've read in Popular Mechanics that biodiesel is many times easier, faster, and more efficient to make from algae that ethanol is to make from corn.  Beyond that, diesel engines are more fuel efficient to begin with. 

What I really disagree with are hybrids.  Its not a really efficient answer to the same problem.  They cost more to design, pollute more to produce, and rarely perform as advertised.  They're also more maintenance intensive.  After all, the more complicated the machine the easier to it is to break.

[MileHighAssassin]

I agree that corn based ethanol is not the answer to ending our dependance on oil, but it is a way to help in the mean time.  Personally I wish America would wake up to diesel and especially biodiesel.  I've read in Popular Mechanics that biodiesel is many times easier, faster, and more efficient to make from algae that ethanol is to make from corn.  Beyond that, diesel engines are more fuel efficient to begin with. 

What I really disagree with are hybrids.  Its not a really efficient answer to the same problem.  They cost more to design, pollute more to produce, and rarely perform as advertised.  They're also more maintenance intensive.  After all, the more complicated the machine the easier to it is to break.

Agree 100%

Ethanol is not the answer, at least when it is made from Corn, but like corn syrup we like it.... American Farmers.  It is much better to make it from grass, but I doubt that will happen.  Either way it is a step in the right direction. 

I am all about Diesel, and I think in the next few years you will see much more diesel options from: VAG, Mercedes, BMW, GM, Hyundai, Jeep, Ford, etc.

GM is introducing a diesel powered Cadillac in 2008, Hyundai is bringing over a diesel powered Veracruz, VAG and Mercedes are expanding their diesel offerings,  BMW is rumoring a 1-
Series as well as a possibility of their other lineups.  Jeep is expanding into the Grand Cherokee.  GM is also rumored to offer a diesel in the H3.

I think whomever brings a diesel in the 1/2 ton truck market will do absolutely fabulous.  1/2 ton truck that has a 3-4 liter V6 diesel that gets aprox. 30 MPG, and has diesel torque.... I am in.

[VWO4L]

Jeep is expanding into the Grand Cherokee.  GM is also rumored to offer a diesel in the H3.

I think whomever brings a diesel in the 1/2 ton truck market will do absolutely fabulous.  1/2 ton truck that has a 3-4 liter V6 diesel that gets aprox. 30 MPG, and has diesel torque.... I am in.

I'd like one of the Grand Cherokee Diesels.  I actually liked the Diesel Liberty.  I got to drive them a few times.  It was a bit slow off the start until the turbo spooled but then it pulled quite nicely.  I can imagine the larger-engined Grand Cherokee would make for some nice torque-filled fun as well.

Your wish will soon come true, I belive the Big 3 all have V-6 diesel options for the 1/2 ton market coming soon.  Ford has a Land Rover Diesel in use overseas that may make it here and Dodge is considering the use of that same 3.0L V-6 Diesel from the Grand Cherokee in the new Ram as well.  I've seen stories mentioning GM's intentions, but can't find anything right now.

Back onto cars though, I really wish VW had offered the Phaeton here with the 4.0L TDI V-8 they offered overseas.  With the prices the Phaetons are selling for now, you could have a sweet big-ass luxury car that got 30+MPG for a reletively cheap price.

I've also considered looking into a used M-B E320CDI.  It was actually the fastest non-AMG E-Series offered at the time(I think it was only '05 and '06 or so) and gets diesel economy as well.  Would be a nicer commuter and/or cross-country car.

[Rukh]

GM is coming to market with a "small displacement" V8 turbodiesel engine by 2009. IT is compact enough that it can fit in anything that also could fit a small-block.

[DutchVDub]

GM is coming to market with a "small displacement" V8 turbodiesel engine by 2009. IT is compact enough that it can fit in anything that also could fit a small-block.

So a 77 Super beetle? 

Toyota is bringing over a diesel Tundra.  I just wish they would bring a diesel Tacoma.  In Iraq there were Tacoma's w/ 4cyl diesel engines.  The S-10 Pickup and Jeep Cherokee used to be offered with a 1.9L TurboDiesel.  Thats what I want, something the size of my Cherokee or an S-10 with a 4 or 6 cyl diesel.

[fotograf]

This is such a difficult topic because, no matter what we want or think is best, the government will back what they will back, no matter what really is best for the country. They felt pressure to jump on some "green" bandwagon, so they jumped on the one that came first, not necessarily the right one.

I believe that diesel is the answer for the future. At the mpg rates that the new diesels are getting, and the Bluetec, which emits only water,it really is hard to deny diesel as a viable answer for the future.

As far as hybrids, they say that they can recycle the batteries, but to what extent? What happens when hybrids are no longer "in" and all of those batteries just get dumped into landfills?

[DutchVDub]

This is such a difficult topic because, no matter what we want or think is best, the government will back what they will back, no matter what really is best for the country. They felt pressure to jump on some "green" bandwagon, so they jumped on the one that came first, not necessarily the right one.

I believe that diesel is the answer for the future. At the mpg rates that the new diesels are getting, and the Bluetec, which emits only water,it really is hard to deny diesel as a viable answer for the future.

As far as hybrids, they say that they can recycle the batteries, but to what extent? What happens when hybrids are no longer "in" and all of those batteries just get dumped into landfills?

not to mention the amount of pollution that goes into making said batteries.  Its the same the same drawback as purely electric cars. Sure the car doesn't pollute, but what about the power plant?

[scurvy_bandit]

hybrids are a joke. the worst idea EVER in my opinion. I think the best thing the US govt could so would require any vehicle over a certain gross vehicle weight use a turbo diesel mandatory... I mean seriously we have a ford f450 at work that has a piece of shit V-10 in it. GHEY...

If all suv's and trucks made were TD then that would be a start. It also might pursuade the idiots who think diesels are slow to just suck it up and buy a damn smaller car.

[scurvy_bandit]

And richard... you should just put a cummins in that bad boy. hellls yeah!!!!!!!

[DutchVDub]

And richard... you should just put a cummins in that bad boy. hellls yeah!!!!!!!

You mean the Cummins 3.9B series motor?  They cost 5000$, I bought my jeep for that.  No thanks.  Besides, looking at the one we are getting ready to Dyno at work I'm pretty sure its too tall for my XJ.  I've only seen pictures of them in Wranglers.  If I do wind up going diesel it'll probably be a TDI from a Passat.

[Smokestack]

And richard... you should just put a cummins in that bad boy. hellls yeah!!!!!!!

You mean the Cummins 3.9B series motor?  They cost 5000$, I bought my jeep for that.  No thanks.  Besides, looking at the one we are getting ready to Dyno at work I'm pretty sure its too tall for my XJ.  I've only seen pictures of them in Wranglers.  If I do wind up going diesel it'll probably be a TDI from a Passat.

I thought about putting a 4BT into my scout, until I heard one on a trail. The rattle and clank of those things are deafening. Not to mention that if they act like the 6's in the dodge trucks their powerband is way too annoying. By the time the turbo finally produces some good pressure you have to shift. A 2L PD TDI has similar numbers to a 4BT( a little more horse but a little less torque) but my concern with using a VW motor is it's a bit light for truck use.

[DutchVDub]

True, but then again a Cherokke is hardly a truck.  Its a unit bodied lightweight as far as SUV's go.  Besides, you can always beef it up.

[Smokestack]

True, but then again a Cherokke is hardly a truck.  Its a unit bodied lightweight as far as SUV's go.  Besides, you can always beef it up.

Yea, I've seen people use them in toyota 4runners and trucks before and they are similar in size/weight as an xj. TDI's rock in sami's though. I'm pretty sure I'd break one in half in the scout though. Although after I remove the 1000lb engine it might have a fighting chance.

[DutchVDub]

I've never seen a TDI in a Zuki.  Most of the guys I talked to when I worked at SpiderTrax were using Turbo Diesels from MK2 VW jettas. 

I look at it this way, if a pansy arsed french built Renault 2.0l TurboDiesel was stout enough for Jeep to put in the XJ stock then a 2.0 TDI should be more than capable.

The S-10 had an Isuzu built 2.2L diesel that produced a whopping 62HP.  Apparently thats all you need to move a 3300lb truck. 

[DutchVDub]

Got bored, did math:

With my 99XJ it costs me almost 50$ to fill up my tank with the nearly 3.00$/gal fuel prices.  Thats for about 16.6 gallons of fuel.  If I only pay 2.00$/gal for the same 16.6 gallons it would only be 33.20$ a tank.  Thats a 16.80$ a week savings.  Ok, now from what I've been told with talking to both FlexTek and Change2E85 I'll be losing about 12% of my fuel economy.  That means I'll be using an additional 1.66 gallons per week.  That would bring my savings of 16.80$ down to 13.48$.  Figuring it cost 650$ for the kit it would take just over 48 weeks to make my money back.  Basically that means it will pay for itself in less than 1 year.  Thats not really too bad. 



So:

Regular gasoline: 16.6gal/wk @ 3.00$/gal x 52wks = 2589.6$ Annual fuel cost

E85: 18.26gal/wk @ 2.00$/gal x 52wks = 1899.04$ + 650$(for conversion) = 2549.04$



That means I'll still save 40.56$ at the end of the year.  After that I'll be saving 690.56$ annually.  Of course thats with some estimation and in a perfectly mathematical world.  Still, I could easily save upwards of 300.00$ annually after the first year.

[VWO4L]

Ok, now from what I've been told with talking to both FlexTek and Change2E85 I'll be losing about 12% of my fuel economy. 

Hopefully, it will only be about 12% Granted, a lot will depend on your driving habits as even regular gas MPG's can vary depending on how heavy your foot is.  But, everything I've read(and I admit I haven't done as much research as you) states that E85 has about 75% of the energy capacity of gasoline.  That should equate to a 25% increase in fuel and also explains the need for higher flow fuel pumps.

On the other end of the spectrum is that fact that E85 is also a higher octane, so perhaps E85 is able to make the same power without having to use 25% more fuel and that's where the 12% comes from. 

I still think though that 12% is a bit of a stretch.  If it were me, I'd shoot for 20% and run the math that way and see if it still makes sense and if it ends up being 12%, that's just gravy.

There was an article in one of the major car magazines in the last year or so where they did a comparison running a flex-fuel vehicle on 100% gasoline and also 100% E85 and compared the fuel economy.  I'll see if I can dig it up. Might give you some additional info.

All that said, I still think it's a great idea and the initial cost seems well worth it for anyone who owns a gas guzzler. 

Will you still be able to run gasoline as well, or will it be converted to purely E85 use?  Sounds kinda dumb, but maybe the computer override won't allow the ECU to compensate when regular gasoline is used?  Just curious in case I look into this in the future.  It would be nice to have a flex-fuel option in case you travel and E85 isn't available.

Edit:  Here's a story that may be helpful.  It's not the exact one I was looking for, but it's something.  It compares all sorts of gas alternatives not just E85.

http://www.motortrend.com/features/consumer/112_0705_alternative_fuel_technology/index.html

[DutchVDub]

It will still allow me to run regular gasoline as well.  I'll basically be turning my Jeep into a flexfuel vehicle.  I talked to a guy at Seypher Automotive who is running the same computer on his Focus (not just any Focus, but one w/ a Cobra V8 and RWD conversion) and he says its worked well for him.  He did advice that I run a tank or two of normal gasoline before switching over to E85 so that the computer can "learn" the various injector maps of the stock computer.  This helps it better recognise how much E85 is in the sytem so it'll work more smoothly.  His only complaint is that if the computer looses power (ex: battery disconneted) it takes awhile for it to "relearn" everything. 

[MileHighAssassin]

I wish the Malibu was offered in an E85 vehicle. 
The new Malibu is a great car, GM did a lot of improvements to it. 
Gm 100k mile warranty with the option to use E85 and that would be a great commuter, just drive it and leave it alone type of car.


BTW...
 From what I have read, when you switch from E85 back to gasoline and then back to E85, your fuel economy sucks.  You really start getting better fuel economy when you drive on E85 consistantly, I think the ECU adapts to the new fuel and makes adjustments.

[arbitris24]

.

[VWO4L]

I got bit by this bug, and looked and looked and looked, and I see debate after debate.

the biggest debates I see are quite amusing seeing as our gas has 10% ethanol in it anyway, so even if you're against it, ods are you're running "E10" if you know it or not.

Maybe, I'm a bit confused but are you equating E10 with E85 and wondering why all these modificaitons are needed?

I recalled reading last year or so that we were going to be switching from MTBE to Ethanol for the winter blend around here to reduce the emmissions during the winter months.  But, E10 isn't harmful to engines made to run on gasoline.  They can handle small amounts, up to 20% Ethanol I believe.  It's when you try running beyond that when modifications are needed so that the Ethanol doesn't eat away at your fuel lines and so that your fuel pump can provide for the higher flow required as well.

[kutark]

Roots or Screw type Supercharged 4.0 I6 is the way to go for a trail engine in an XJ.